"If ever there was a man who could beat some pretty into me, it's Wyn. He'll probably even leave me symmetrical bruises and make sure the colors don't clash."
Random Elf Questions Penelope Has
Submitted by Lothere on Fri, 04/25/2008 - 19:55.
Moving the discussion over here from "Eleven Castes 101" on Verso... I hope you don't mind, but the little comments box didn't seem like the right place to talk about this.
Are there elves in places outside of Lothere?
That's something I don't want to answer straight off. But certain individuals in positions to know certain truths think that there are no others...
It took me ages to find this quote, but here it is, from "Araphel and Amarel are alone" (on the matter of the Pope unexpectedly accepting his position early):
This was not a matter on the scale of one strange valley, with its unexpected births and miraculously avoided deaths, and with its last refugees from doomed races living a few years longer than anticipated.
I think the "last refugees from doomed races" is a good hint. Not necessarily limited to the elves, either.
On the other hand, Baraqiel had this thought in "Araphel is warned", speaking of the khírrón:
"We don’t know what they are doing here. I don’t know how they came to be here at all. So far as we knew, they never left their island during all their time on earth."
So there's a hint the khírrón came from an island somewhere else, and "their time on earth" was apparently supposed to be over.
Also, do the elves have a name for the valley (not an elvish word for “valley” but like a kingdom or territory name)? Do they even think in terms of territory?
They don't think of territory in terms of who owns what property. That's why Sorin doesn't have any particular problem with Sigefrith calling himself King.
The elves' model of the universe (and time) is of concentric circles or wheels. The place where you are includes all the places inside the place where you are (i.e. all the rings inside of the ring where you are), and does not include anything outside.
The crests of the hills surrounding the valley mark the outside of "the place where the elves are", and they have a name: Karrín. The word karr is also the word they use for the fences the silly men are always putting up all over the place.
I suppose they have a name for the world "outside" but I haven't made it up yet. Nor for the valley itself... I suppose they would just call it something like "here" or "inside" or something. They don't have a name for it, or if they have, it has been lost.
In "Vash learns what has been happening here" the elves did mention that a certain pack of the wolves "crosses over the hills" during that season, so they must have a way of talking about the outside that has to do with crossing Karrín.
Since the goal is always to go towards the center, it is both taboo and totally undesirable for an elf to leave the valley. That would be like taking a step closer to Hell. The "inside" of the valley is the sacred lake, and the "inside" of the lake is the mysterious Island that Paul mentioned in "Cat asks about her dream":
I shall tell you how it is for elves. Most of us, when we die, simply rejoin the world as air and water and earth and fire. A few of us—the blessed dead—go to the Island, which is a sort of paradise, and live there forever. And a few others, the accursed dead, live forever here in the world. As bats.
So even the damned don't get so damned that they are excluded from the valley. They just get stuck there with no hope of getting closer to Paradise in the center
Anyway, we've already seen what happens when an elf who is bound to other elves leaves the valley. Since everyone seems to be bound at least to their mothers, that doesn't leave many elves who could leave even if they wanted to.
And we know they have magic but how technologically advanced are they?
I don't have the impression they have any significant technology the men don't. They don't have telescopes or machines or anything. The kisór are deliberately kept in ignorance and poverty, and the khírrón themselves are an extremely conservative society. This has to do with their whole wheel thing again... if a tool or technology wasn't around in the time of the ancestors, there's no reason for it to exist now, since nothing ever changes. Any advances over men's technology -- especially in terms of healing or "raw materials" like their clothes or swords -- seems to be due more to magic.
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How do you come up with
Submitted by Tiffany on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 12:16.How do you come up with these kinds of details?
My mind is a bottomless pit
Submitted by Lothere on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 12:21.My mind is a bottomless pit of details. Over 3+ years of world-building you can dredge up an awful lot of them. (Linguistics happens to be a fetish of mine however.)
Ah, linguistics. It's
Submitted by Tiffany on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 12:23.Ah, linguistics.
It's amazing stuff. So what languages? I remember you told me once, but all I can remember is Egyptian, French, English...?
Not just learning different
Submitted by Lothere on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 12:30.Not just learning different languages, but learning about how languages work. One of the best ways to do that is to make up your own, and in tinkering with that you learn just how complex (and amazing) language really is.
For the record, English and French are my only fluent languages, though I can usually muddle through a German newspaper or movie or conversation. Otherwise when I was first in college I set out to learn all the languages of my ancestors, so I studied Irish & Scottish Gaelic, Dutch, and had a glance at Swedish. Ancient Egyptian is in there, along with a familiarity of other ancient Semitic languages like Nabatean and Aramaic and Hebrew and stuff. *shrugs* The more languages you learn, the easier it is to pick up bits of other ones.
Where's a jaw drop smiley
Submitted by Tiffany on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 12:39.Where's a jaw drop smiley when you need it.
Lothere, whatever happened
Submitted by PenelopetheFox on Fri, 02/20/2009 - 16:07.Lothere, whatever happened to Midra?
I answered this just a
Submitted by Lothere on Sat, 02/21/2009 - 07:34.I answered this just a couple months ago, and given the pace of my writing, nothing has changed.
I wonder how she is taking Druze's disappearance and whether she knows what's going on with him. Are they still bound? Can they still feel each other? I think they probably aren't since Druze was actually dead for several days before Hel "reanimated him" or whatever she did. And elves get "unbound" as soon as one or the other dies.
I don't know if this has
Submitted by PenelopetheFox on Wed, 04/01/2009 - 18:22.I don't know if this has ever been asked before BUT who names kisor children? Do they have a Shalla-like figure who names the kids?
I Want Maire Dead before
Submitted by Devin on Wed, 04/01/2009 - 18:26.I Want Maire Dead before 1086 fund - Please kindly support
Meryt did mention once that some Khirron men liked to name their kisor children.
I did, Devin? That doesn't
Submitted by Lothere on Thu, 04/02/2009 - 04:46.I did, Devin? That doesn't sound right. Do you mean the kisór men? The khírrón men don't seem to give their kisór children much -- if any -- thought.
Pen, their culture has been overturned in the space of the last two or three generations. In the past it was organized very strongly around nuclear families and they didn't have much in the way of "leaders" of any kind. They had elders -- the last of these (males) died earlier this year -- but even those weren't treated with an especially sacred reverence. Maybe they were only particularly important to their own actual descendants, I don't know.
In any case I think the kisór did not have religious leaders in the same way the khírrón do -- they're more like Quakers than Catholics. (Heheh. *imagines Lar dressed like the Quaker Oats Man*.... *yup still hot*)
Nowadays, of course, the "wild" ones live in groups of women descended from a common grandmother, and I'm going to guess that these elder ladies are of increasing importance because (lacking men) those elves don't have the same depth of religious ritual as the kisór of the underground. So I figure they have to have something to revere.
The other important point is that the kisór generally can't name their babies the way the khírrón do. (Unless Saralla is faking it, of course.) They do not have the ability to see into the "nature" of other elves the way we have seen Paul do. Maybe Paul's a little special that way (heh, that would be interesting, I never thought of that...) but there is obviously some belief that the Shalla and other elves with great magic can name you by determining your exact nature, rather than just by picking something pretty. That's why everyone was so startled when she named Vash and when she named Iylaine's baby, and why everyone is WTF'ing about Osh's name to this day (except for Aia apparently).
There's also a belief that elves with great magic shouldn't go around looking into the natures of other elves, but Paul does it anyway. He's a nature pervert or something. Or a curious guy.
Anyway, I just told you all I know, since I don't know exactly how the kisór name their babies. When Lar did it, it was a special occasion, since he wasn't even the kid's father. (Unless it was because the kid's father was dead.) I'm going to guess that the males name their own legitimate children and probably -- to the extent they ever see them again -- their illegitimate children in the above-ground as well. Since simply having a father is such an honor, I can see being named by your very own father as being an extra sign of your specialness.
For those who don't, I guess either the elders do, or the mothers do. The current crop of elders is dominated by ladies with no magic at all, so they must come up with their names based on other factors. Maybe really just what sounds pretty, or what superficially seems to suit the baby. (Naming a pale kid "Snow" or something.)
And... that was definitely more than you wanted to know.
That's why everyone was so
Submitted by Sofie on Thu, 04/02/2009 - 12:44.Huh? What's that about Osh's name? I don't remember anything about that.
Saralla named Osh too? She
Submitted by PenelopetheFox on Thu, 04/02/2009 - 12:54.Saralla named Osh too? She was the oldest living khirron elf even back then? At 40 or 50-something? Yikes.
I didn't mean to imply that
Submitted by Lothere on Thu, 04/02/2009 - 13:22.I didn't mean to imply that Saralla named Osh. She didn't become the Shalla until late 1051, when she was in her 60's and Osh was 10 years old. I suppose Osh must have been named by Padrua, who was an old dame of 76 at the time.
As for his name... obscure Lothere trivia alert!
The word ósh means "leaf" in modern elven, but in olden times and in poetry it meant "shade" or "shadow". However, that is the word the kisór still use for "shadow" to this day, and they have a different word for "leaf".
From "Osh is brought beyond such bounds":
And from "Aia tells her tale to lords":
What the khírrón (including Osh) don't seem to be capable of admitting is that Osh's name doesn't mean "leaf", no matter what the word ósh means nowadays.
I Want Maire Dead before
Submitted by Devin on Thu, 04/02/2009 - 14:48.I Want Maire Dead before 1086 fund - Please kindly support
Was it a coincidance that Sela was given her name which ment "flowing water," since she has water nature.
It's no coincidence at all.
Submitted by Lothere on Thu, 04/02/2009 - 15:34.It's no coincidence at all. If you haven't noticed, all the elves are named according to their nature. It's just that the khírrón -- at least according to their own minds -- name themselves according to their precise nature: not just some water-word, but the exact nature of the elf. Paul wouldn't name his coming baby Sela, because she's not like flowing water at all -- she is like dew.
His/her name will probably be Shénadrú(a) if it's left up to Paul. He probably already calls him/her that in his head. His "little dew baby" as Cat says. *melts into squishy puddle*
I Want Maire Dead before
Submitted by Devin on Thu, 04/02/2009 - 15:58.I Want Maire Dead before 1086 fund - Please kindly support
Was Sela like flowing water then?
Err, I don't know. We don't
Submitted by Lothere on Thu, 04/02/2009 - 16:15.Err, I don't know. We don't know who named her.
This might be a little off
Submitted by PenelopetheFox on Tue, 06/23/2009 - 07:09.This might be a little off the wall but did Nimea have er- special feelings for Druze?
I don't know... I haven't
Submitted by Lothere on Tue, 06/23/2009 - 07:26.I don't know... I haven't implied that they have had much or any contact, have I? Just that she helped his twin sister / lover carry their baby. (Who was born after Druze died anyway.)
The only evidence that comes to mind is this bit she tells to Vash, in "Vash goes down":
By my calculations that would be a previous elf named Druze, one who has been dead for nearly 200 years. So assuming she's telling the truth, Vash is the first elf in 200 years whom she has invited up for a drink, as it were.
She does sometimes come out of the lake to speak to other elves however. Osh saw her once. (Or was it Paul? Or someone... I can't find that bit now...) So it's not impossible. I don't really think so though.
It would be tough luck for the poor lady... first Druze who is passionately in love with his sister, and then Vash who only has eyes for Iylaine... Should have stuck with Myrddin I guess.
Oooook. I just always
Submitted by PenelopetheFox on Tue, 06/23/2009 - 07:36.Oooook. I just always assumed that "Druze" meant our Druze.
I wouldn't wish Myrddin on
Submitted by PenelopetheFox on Tue, 06/23/2009 - 07:38.I wouldn't wish Myrddin on anyone. Except for maybe Myrddin himself.
Heheh... he wasn't always
Submitted by Lothere on Tue, 06/23/2009 - 07:41.Heheh... he wasn't always old and stinky you know.