"Prop me up if you can, but if I start to fall, you tell everyone to get out of the way."
Van decides to start being a good person and stop stealing other people's threads
Submitted by Van on Fri, 12/05/2008 - 00:56.
Okay, so here's a hypothetical situation that probably won't ever happen in your story, but I'm curious.
Say there's some noble girl, and she's engaged to some noble guy. However, said noble girl gets involved with a married man and gets pregnant. So, she's been unfaithful to her fiance, so he probably wouldn't want to marry her anymore (and his parents would probably agree), but at the same time, she can't go running to the father of her baby, since he already has a wife. Or maybe her mortified parents would make her get married right away so that she can at least pretend the baby is the noble guy's baby?
I had a better question too, but I've totally forgotten it. It probably had something to do with Lar.
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Hey, is Dunstan on good
Submitted by Van on Tue, 12/30/2008 - 16:05.Hey, is Dunstan on good enough terms with Leofric to let him put his talents to use and name his and Brit's baby? Because I'd imagine he's still at least somewhat angry about the affair with Matilda, but at the same time, do we really need another little Matilda/Maud/Alred/Sigefrith running around Lothere causing confusion à la the infamous Eadgith/Eadie mix-ups by all in 1077?
Of course, I'm sure if all else fails, Dunstan, Britamund, and/or Alred could come up with a perfectly good name on their own...
Yay! Nice avatar! I've
Submitted by Lothere on Tue, 12/30/2008 - 16:57.Yay! Nice avatar! I've been missing my own Lar face lately... but Egelric is just so sly yet brooding in my current one... I can't decide!
Anyway *cough* it's an interesting question because both Brit and Dunstan have their own somewhat nebulous relationships with Leofric, not simply inherited from their fathers and fathers-in-law.
Brit is Eadie's step-daughter and close friend, so back when she was still living at her father's castle she must have seen Leofric all the time, and dined with him and so forth. She's also clever enough that he probably found her an interesting conversationalist, and too young and Sigefrith-like to be worthy of his leers. But then again Brit also has this really special and close relationship with Alred...
Meanwhile back in Dunstan's early chess-playing days, he was always following Leof around like a puppy, and for a brief time they were really close. And Leof seemed to do him a lot of good in terms of giving him some self-confidence and making him stop mumbling and hiding behind his hair so much. On the other hand, that was the same time Leof was carrying on his affair with Matilda -- so massive second-father-figure betrayal there.
I know that Dunstan has never been close to Leof after that happened, but he's really growing up lately -- and somewhat precociously, but that's not surprising since (1) Alred leaned on him so much back when Matilda died, and (2) he got married so young, and (3) Alred's leaning on him so much again now. And therefore he seems to be a remarkably mature and level-headed young man of late, even if some of it is just an act to help keep his family on even keel, with his father's recent instability. Dunstan does not seem the sort to rant and howl and swear he'll hate Leofric forever. He values peace too much for that.
And back just before the Old Man's infamous party, Dunstan and Leofric were the only ones who tried to make Alred see that he wasn't doing enough to help Hetty in her grief, and it was Dunstan who brought Hetty down to make peace with Alred after he woke up again, and I suspect that if there is anyone who can both understand Hetty's feelings for Leofric and yet manage to bring Alred and Hetty back together, it's Dunstan.
This is maybe a somewhat heavy answer to a light question, but it seems almost inevitable that the relationships between Dunstan, Brit, Leofric, Alred, and Hetty are going to be a big topic in the coming year. Some interesting alchemy is going to come out of those interactions -- either something explosive, or something with healing properties. (Or both.)
However, at present I would have to say that I doubt Dunstan and Brit would go so far over Alred's head as to ask Leofric for a name for Alred's first grandchild. If anyone besides Brit and Dunstan themselves name it, it should probably be Alred or Sigefrith -- its only living grandparents -- or whomever Brit and Dunstan choose to be godparents. (Probably not Leof!)
Sorry about those mix-ups over the years. What may happen is that it gets a family name, but Alred sticks it with a nickname like the Old Man or the Apostle. When Leof can't save us from confusion, Alred sometimes will.
Thank you I noticed there
Submitted by Van on Tue, 12/30/2008 - 17:28.Thank you
I noticed there weren't any avatars for Larl or Gwynn, and I wasn't really doing anything at the time, so I whipped up one for each of them, and then one for Finn too, just because. The Gwynn and Finn ones look a little zoomed out (I kind of went overboard when trying to prevent any severed foreheads), but I think the Lar one turned out okay, even though I felt the need to play around with brightness and contrast (at 85x85 pixels, his chin seemed to be blending into his neck).
I can't wait to see Alred as a grandpa. Maybe his little grandchild will help him get his life back in gear...
I kind of hope Gwynn is the baby's godmother. Yeah, she's a little young, but I'm pretty sure you aren't planning on killing off Brit or Dunstan before Gwynn grows up, or at least not both of them. Gwynn does have something a friendship with Brit, and she's Dunstan's oldest surviving sister... although maybe they didn't make godparents out of such close relatives in those days? I'm not totally sure.
Did Egelric have any of the same problems with Sela that Malcolm does with Iylaine? I'm sure Sela would have been considerably more keen on a little four-legged frolic during her fertile periods, just like Iylaine is, but all the same, I can't see her being quite as frigid as Iylaine is when she's not fertile; if she was, Egelric never complained about it, at least not that I can remember. Is it just a kisor/khirron thing, or their personalities, or did Sela just have a more consistent sex drive than Iylaine does?
Also, before I forget, I
Submitted by Van on Tue, 12/30/2008 - 17:39.Also, before I forget, I must apologize for accidentally stealing two of your characters' names--I'd totally forgotten that you'd already claimed them. My bad
The good thing is, neither of those two of your characters is particularly important at this point (I'm not even sure if one of them has even shown his face yet), but with a story this long, it's inevitable that one or both will gain some prominence eventually. The other good thing is, neither of my characters with the stolen names are too important either (in fact, one of them is dead).
Still, I feel kind of bad. Sorry
There was no Gwynn? I'm
Submitted by Lothere on Tue, 12/30/2008 - 18:16.There was no Gwynn? I'm stunned! I like the one you chose... looks like she's squawking. So Gwynn.
Um, I don't think I have any ownership rights on most of the names in my story since I am just borrowing from historical sources, as I just explained to François. So I don't think it's possible to "steal" them. (OK actually if you had a character named Shosudin, that would be iffy... You would have to work a random name generator for a long time -- and probably bribe it with bacon -- to spontaneously come up with Shosudin, so I wouldn't buy it. OTOH someone else spontaneously come up with the name "Lothere" so who can say? There's a lot of bacon in the world.) I'm curious, what are the names though?
Anyway, about godparents, I'm doing a lousy job with that I think. I'm not keeping track of them very well, which I know is going to come back and bite me in the behind one of these days. And back in this time period it was actually pretty complicated who could be your godparents. For one thing -- and I have already totally ignored this several times over I believe -- it was actually frowned upon for you to marry a child of your godparents, even if they were totally unrelated to you.
So mostly I just ignore all that bother and make everyone be godparents willy-nilly as best amuses me and advances my story. I wouldn't be surprised if Gwynn got to be the baby's godmother, especially if it's a girl. Though Ogive would also be a splendid choice. But if it's a girl it's not unheard of to have two godmothers and one godfather, so maybe they both could be. And maybe Bertie as a godfather? So cute! Can't wait!
As for the ELF SEX, I think a lot of that is just Iylaine's personality. For one thing, withholding sex would be a great way to assert herself and remind the world (in the guise of Malcolm) that she doesn't really want to be in that relationship -- or at least, not in that sort of relationship with that particular man.
Now, I don't think it's just that -- their relationship is not that bad. I think Iylaine simply has some trust/intimacy issues thanks to her upbringing that would make her somewhat ambivalent about sex. She has never been interested in flirting or kissing or dancing, or any of that stuff. (Which is probably one of the reasons why she liked Malcolm so much. He wasn't into the romance thing either.)
But given that, it just means that sex is one of the "first things to go" in that relationship every time they fight or Iylaine gets cranky about something. Check out "Malcolm goes on" to witness this dynamic in excruciating detail.
And when I'm in a cranky mood with Iylaine myself, it is just one of the things that puts me over the top. Sometimes I wish Malcolm could have had (or that he will someday have) a relationship where he's not carrying all the weight uphill both ways -- where he's with someone who really adores him, and wants to spend all her time with him, and wants to be intimate with him, and thinks he's the best and cleverest and handsomest man in the whole world. I think Malcolm would be like "WOAH! It can be like that?"
And if that ever did happen now I bet Iylaine would finally realize what a good thing she had. But maybe it would be too late.
As for elf sex in general though... I don't know. Whom have we seen besides Sela? She seemed to like sex with Egelric at any time (WHO WOULDN'T??). Otherwse we've only seen Madra and Ris, and Madra didn't even want to touch that (WHO WOULD??). And Nush and Nina, but there seems to be something a bit creepy there, even if it's only due to the unfairly taboo nature of their relationship. It would be nice to just see an ordinary loving couple, like Shus and Dara, say, to get a baseline example of what it's supposed to be like.
A Shus and Dara chapter
Submitted by Van on Tue, 12/30/2008 - 18:38.A Shus and Dara chapter would be awesome, but you've probably got a ton of other stuff lined up first, and with good reason.
The names I "stole" are Oswald and Fenric (although in my defense I spelt Fenric with a k at the end and my Fenrick is dead anyway). If it helps, I accidentally "stole" a name from Pen too, but I'm not feeling quite as guilty about that because it was for something I started writing before I ever discovered Sim stories.
There's also Lena, I suppose. I don't imagine she'd be opposed to sex with Aengus during one of her infertile periods, but that may be partly because she was raised to be a concubine.
I have no idea what to think about the whole Lena/Aengus/Maire thing. I like Lena's character, and I think she and Aengus are adorable together, but at the same time, I can totally relate to Maire. Are Lena and Aengus really in love? This was probably mentioned somewhere... oh well, even if it wasn't, I'm pretty sure they are
Also on that note, if Maire had gotten pregnant by either Cearball or Egelric, would she have sucked it up and slept with Aengus, sacrificing her pride for her honor, or not?
Oooh Fenric, we might be
Submitted by Lothere on Tue, 12/30/2008 - 20:19.Oooh Fenric, we might be seeing more of him soon since he will be going to live at Sigefrith's castle as soon as Theobald is out of the valley. And Theobald just left the valley today, so that should be any day now. I don't think we have ever seen him in a chapter yet though!
As for Oswald... yeah I am assuming you didn't choose that name in anyone's "honor". I think I spoiled it for myself forever.
We already saw Lena and Aengus together in the woods in early May and she seemed to be enjoying herself with him, so I guess there's that evidence. Who knows, though, whether Lena wasn't more interested in just being loved than having sex?
Are Aengus and Lena really in love? It's probably better to look at that question separately for both sides.
I think Lena loves Aengus in her resigned way -- he's her man, she just can't have him. I doubt she would look for another man if she lost him totally, though. Especially with what we've just seen, she would probably be fine with just raising her son and forgetting about any other males of any race.
Meanwhile Aengus is a twisted up bundle of indecision. One minute he loves Lena, and the next he's pining for Maire. He's a wishy-washy sort of guy. But overall I do think Maire is the love of his life. She's just too much for him -- too high for him, too mighty for him. If Maire says No to him, he doesn't have the will or the courage to stand up to her, and that's what Maire really needs. (Not necessarily in terms of sex, I mean.)
I think Aengus really screwed up when he got back with Lena after Paul's wedding. It was so nice, so easy, having his cake and eating it too... but he ruined things with Maire. He's not done paying for that mistake yet.
We'll get some additional insight into the Maire/Aengus/Lena triangle right soon, methinks.
Meanwhile don't forget that Maire has no way of knowing yet whether she's even pregnant or not, and Aengus is on his way home, so you may soon get a definitive answer to the question of what she would do or not do to cover all her bases.
I would love to do Shus and Dara together but it's the usual boring-happy couple syndrome...
Or maybe not. These past few days I have come to realize that I probably will need to do my big messy khírrón drama this month after all, in spite of how much longer it's going to drag out December. Too many other stars are coming into alignment at the end of this month, and in order for it all to make sense without ruining the fun of the drama part of it, I probably will have to add that piece of the puzzle in too. Oh well, at least now there will be Shus. (I think this will even have an impact on Rua and Malcolm's story too...)
I'm not surprised that Sela
Submitted by Devin on Tue, 12/30/2008 - 22:10.I'm not surprised that Sela enjoyed having sex with Egelric. She did seem to be a very passionate person. I remember the night when Wulf was conceived and she kept Egelric to keep holding her..
But how could Sela and Egelric have sex with they boys sleeping in the room. With their ears they probably could have heard everything. There's more gross in the world than seeing your parents having sex.
Oh, the terrible memories!
Submitted by Van on Tue, 12/30/2008 - 22:50.Oh, the terrible memories!
There is absolutely NOTHING worse
They were babies! Anyways,
Submitted by Lothere on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 04:18.They were babies!
Anyways, in this time period most people slept with the entire family in one room. (And in "most" time periods since the beginning of humanity, and in "many" cultures even today...) Nobody would have been shocked at the idea of discreetly having sex beneath the covers while your children (or brother and his wife, or elderly father, or your houseguests, etc.) were in the room.
Did young Sigefrith ever
Submitted by Van on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 14:19.Did young Sigefrith ever really love Hilda as anything more than the mother of his children, even before they got married? Also, did Hilda have any opportunity to cheat other than with Leofric (who may not have even obliged her)?
I think Sigefrith did love
Submitted by Lothere on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 15:33.I think Sigefrith did love Hilda. Not the way he loves Wynflaed, but Hilda was his first real "girlfriend" so he thought he was quite in love with her at the time. (Age 14-15 or so.) Aside from her petulant nature and her unhappiness about having babies all the time, she didn't get REALLY nasty for a few years. Lots of guys have spoiled, bitchy girlfriends/wives and are still cool with them.
And Sigefrith being the loving soul he is, he always tried so hard to love her in spite of her nastiness and in spite of her faults. He tried so hard to see the good in her. And he saw it, I think. Not many people could -- surely not many of my readers ever have -- but Sigefrith is a special guy. A sort of dim-wittedly jovial everyday saint. The sort of man who thinks with his heart instead of his head. Sadly, Hilda was his opposite in every way.
I don't believe Hilda cheated. (She certainly never did with Leofric. Leofric wouldn't do that to Sigefrith, and he would probably drop-kick Hilda across the room if she did it to Sigefrith.)
In fact, for all her harping about him not being "a real man" I think Hilda did like Sigefrith for some things. He is pretty hot, and seems like he would be good in bed. Indeed, I would not be surprised if one of the reasons why she despised Sigefrith was because she was so strongly attracted to him physically, in spite of her intellect telling her that he was a dolt. Hilda is not the sort of woman who can stand losing control, and if she found herself helpless against her own desire for him, that must have made her very uncomfortable at times.
Otherwise... even if she wanted to cheat I am not sure whom she would cheat with. Stein was a bit young, young Eirik was her brother for heaven's sake, and the rest of the men around her were married more or less happily. Sigefrith's steward is nothing to get excited about, and I doubt the eldest daughter of Haakon Tryggvasson would stoop any lower than a steward in any case. The only person she would have willingly slept with was her cousin Eirik, and of course we now know that Eirik himself wouldn't have done it -- he was in love with Sigi even when he hated her. I'm not saying he never did -- I don't remember whether I ever decided if she was a virgin or not when Sigefrith first got to her -- but if she ever slept with Eirik or any other young gentleman, it must have been back in Norway.
There's nothing worse,
Submitted by Tiffany on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 13:54.There's nothing worse, Van?
...let's just leave it at
Submitted by Van on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 13:57....let's just leave it at "If it's bad when you're a baby, it will be many times worse when you're fifteen". I still get goosebumps walking into that room, three years later.
Meanwhile, onto more
Submitted by Van on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 13:59.Meanwhile, onto more pleasant things... I noticed Malcolm's mother is ten weeks pregnant. It's so sad that he'll probably never see her again, and never meet his new little sibling ...has he even met some of his younger siblings, like the twins Gog named for Sigefrith and Eadie?
Malcolm last saw his mother
Submitted by Lothere on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 14:06.Malcolm last saw his mother in March/April 1083, so the youngest twins weren't even born yet. But he has met all of the others born before.
There are a few actions you
Submitted by Van on Sat, 01/10/2009 - 11:53.There are a few actions you make your sims do, and I'm not sure if you downloaded them (I think you can download actions?), or if you combine two actions and move people around, or if you need a certain expansion pack for them.
First one: the comforting when someone's crying. At first I thought that must be from an expansion pack, but then I started thinking maybe the person doing the comforting is really in the middle of some other action? I'm not sure.
Second: The kind of dancing your sims do. How on earth do you do that?
Oh, and before I forget, who
Submitted by Van on Sat, 01/10/2009 - 11:56.Oh, and before I forget, who would you say Cedric is more "into" these days, Kraaia or Gwynn?
I use the "Cry... Mild"
Submitted by Lothere on Sat, 01/10/2009 - 12:27.I use the "Cry... Mild" animation to make one Sim start crying. You can get this with the downloadable reaction tester mod. It's a yellow box you can buy and put on your lot, and when you click on it you get a big pie menu of various animations your active Sim can do.
Once a Sim is crying, another Sim who has a high relationship with him can click on him and select "Console" and then he will do the comforting animation. The "Console" isn't even a hack. Any Sim who's crying (such as after a death) can be "Console"d by someone with high enough relationship -- the trick is getting someone to cry in the first place, and the animation tester takes care of that.
decorgal21572 also has a bunch of animation mods over at mts2. I think they're all base game compatible. You use those to make your Sim perform one of a list of hundreds of animations... a lot of trial and error and happy accidents there.
There is a "Console... Back Off" animation in the Standing Talk Hack that is very cool -- you can use it to make the 2nd Sim look like he's attempting to console and getting rejected. I actually used this animation several times on Eithne when she's freaking out while trying to help Cian while he's coughing uncontrollably. (Coughing brought to you by the Hula & More hack, which I was just about to get to.)
My other big source of animations is Squinge's Hula & More mod, which has moved AGAIN and is now here. When you install this mod, a new "Hula & More" menu appears when you click on a Sim, and you can choose animations from in there. The advantage/disadavantage of Hula & More (unlike most of the other animation hacks) is that the animations loop forever until you cancel them from their queue. For dancing that's great though.
For dancing, I use the "Hula Dance (No Music)" animation from Hula & More. If you make sure all your Sims' queues are clear, then pause the game and make everyone start "Hula Dance", they will all start dancing in unison when you unpause. Then it's just a matter of using move_objects to get everyone in line.
For the recent Crazy Dance Party, I used quite a few other animations for the Crazy Dances. Cearball and Connie were using the bonfire dance from the University Animbox (requires Uni, obviously), and I think Paul and Rua were doing a Hula & More animation ("Bowling... Strike" I believe... crazy I know), and the rest of the people were using various other dance animations from Hula & More. (There are a lot more than just the Hula Dance in there, of course.)
As for Cedric... well, I don't know. I don't think Cedric was ever "into" Kraaia in that way, but after his first experience of kissing her, he might want to go back for more. Not out of love though... it depends on how much Cedric's natural gallantry will be influenced by the whisperings of boys like Cubby. If he thinks she wants it and isn't worthy of being allowing to keep her virginity...
Gwynn on the other hand... I think he does have a slight crush, but perhaps not as big as he is imagining it to be. Cedric has a way of blowing everything out of proportion.
...Excellent... Thank you I
Submitted by Van on Sat, 01/10/2009 - 12:51....Excellent...
Thank you I think I'm going to have quite a bit of fun with this Hula&More hack...
Cedric still thinks that
Submitted by Devin on Sat, 01/10/2009 - 13:12.Cedric still thinks that Karaaia would still want to see him after what he did? That boy is somethin else..
Cedric doesn't know how she
Submitted by Lothere on Sat, 01/10/2009 - 13:54.Cedric doesn't know how she reacted. He hasn't met her since then so he hasn't had the ability to talk to her about it, much less look inside her head as we have.
When he talked with his dad we saw that he thought he was trying to hurt her, so he must have assumed he did. But with his dad gone, and the likes of Cubby and Conrad whispering in his ear, I can easily see him being convinced she sorta liked it too. Some teen boys do so firmly believe that "No" means "Go"...
Well he's gonna have to get
Submitted by Devin on Sat, 01/10/2009 - 14:11.Well he's gonna have to get past Osh to get to Kraaia. I guess I'm not for Cedric and Kraaia anymore...
Osh =
Submitted by Lothere on Sat, 01/10/2009 - 14:23.Osh =
*hugs Osh*
Submitted by PenelopetheFox on Sat, 01/10/2009 - 16:29.*hugs Osh*
When you first made Lar, did
Submitted by Van on Wed, 01/14/2009 - 21:46.When you first made Lar, did you have his whole back-story in mind for him? Or did you originally just make him so you could have a kisor leader with a face (and someone to look sexy in the background)?
Also, which of Alred's kids do you think resents Leofric the most? Dunstan doesn't really "resent" him, as you said earlier, he's much too mature and peaceful for that, but I'm not sure the same could be said about the others.
When I first made Lar I
Submitted by Lothere on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 06:01.When I first made Lar I didn't even plan on making him pretty -- much less the leader of the kisór, or with any backstory at all. I just needed some pointy-eared genes to make a baby. I whipped up a family consisting of the uncle and the black-haired woman we saw in "Dunstan attends an awkward meeting", plus a brunette, a blonde, and a random male elf. My original idea was to breed the three ladies with the elf until I got a boy baby with pointed ears, but I got Wulf on the first try -- and then I was a little disappointed because I wished I had started with the brunette or the blonde.
The whole backstory for Lar, and the kisór in general, came quite, quite late in the story. Even as late as 1081, in "Malcolm meets an elf", Vash was saying "No elf has killed another elf in a very, very long time." So I had to retroactively decide that he was conveniently excluding the entire race of the kisór from his calculations.
I think we first saw Lar in 1082 in "Iylaine is underground", when he was still on his high from getting Dre on his side, and he still had dozens of fighters, and he really thought he was going to pull something off. (I didn't know that then, either.)
His character didn't begin to develop until even later, when Dre started pressing him to do some really weird shit, and then of course once Dasi and Imin hit the scene, things really took off, to the point that I wish I could write their whole history as a separate story now.
For your second question... I would have to say it's Margaret. She owned Leof's ass in "Leofric sees the daughter". And she's the type who could hold a grudge for a very, very long time, and be very dangerous when she acted out over it.
Gwynn doesn't like him, but Gwynn-like she can't help but think he's lusting after her.
The Old Man doesn't remember his mom too well, and if he resents Leof for anything it's more for what he did to his father. The Old Man takes his cues from his father, and probably isn't quite sensitive enough to realize that Alred's forgiveness of Leofric was fake, so he must have thought everything was OK there until Leof almost did it again with Hetty.
Dunstan, as I discussed recently, is getting wise in his earnest young way, plus he did for a while have quite a close friendship with Leofric, so he is probably still rather ambivalent. And certainly trying to forgive.
That leaves Yware, but I am going to assume he doesn't even think about Leofric any more, except perhaps as some swaggering 16-year-old's favorite "I'm gonna kick his ass someday" enemy whom he curses when he's drunk. But I really don't want to speculate too much about Yware since I haven't written him in so long. He may surprise me.
but I got Wulf on the first
Submitted by Sofie on Fri, 01/16/2009 - 12:32.I assume you mean Gils.
Uh, yeah. That was not at
Submitted by Lothere on Fri, 01/16/2009 - 12:38.Uh, yeah. That was not at all an unintentional revelation of anyone's secret parentage there. As if it's not BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS Wulf really is Egelric's son.
If you were a kisor elf,
Submitted by Van on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 22:47.If you were a kisor elf, which khirron male(s) would you prefer to meet in the middle of the forest at dusk? I'm guessing either Vash or Shus would be the safest bets?
Also, do you think that in a few years, Finn and Gwynn may become candidates for "trouble"? Or is Gwynn more traditional than that?
If I were a kisór female
Submitted by Lothere on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 05:33.If I were a kisór female elf you mean? I wouldn't want to meet any of them if I were a male.
There are some khírrón who do not partake of the fruits of the forest at all, so I guess I would most like to meet one of those, if that's what you're getting at. Shus and Paul and Vash never did... Some kind of spoken or unspoken solidarity with Vash, who couldn't see his woman at all. Vash is the trendsetter among the young elves (keep an eye on Finn's hair for further proof of that ) so the younger generation got stuck in a collective virginity pledge. Shus and Paul were virgins when they were married, and most of the younger guys still are too. Also some of the older guys have stopped going, though not necessarily because of Vash.
(If I have to tell you which one I would like to meet in the hopes they would want to sleep with me... heheh...)
Needless to say I would not want to meet Ris or Dru under any circumstances.
I think Gwynn and Finn would be excellent candidates for "trouble" because Gwynn seems so impulsive (and horny). If anything she would be the one trying to talk Finn out of his worries. (She can embroider the family motto on her pillowcases: "We can be Careful!"™)
The two of them in a couple of years... in full flush of teenage hormones and sense-of-invincibility... in the heat of the moment...
And that's assuming Gwynn even understands by then how babies are made!!!
Margaret on the other hand... hmm...
And Emma on the other hand...
That really is the family
Submitted by Van on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 12:31.That really is the family motto there
Alred would be soooooo furious if either Gwynn or Margaret got pregnant as unmarried teenagers. He'd murder Finn/Conrad/any other potential culprit in a gruesome fashion, then drop the body at Aelfden's feet and order him to marry the corpse and his daughter. But how would Egelric react to Finn getting Gwynn pregnant? On one hand, I can see him being angry at Finn for getting intimate with the daughter of his close friend, and a girl above his station (and one that Egelric himself might be interested in, at that), but on the other hand, I can see him being somewhat amused ("You got the Duke's daughter pregnant? That's the most interesting piece of gossip I've heard in years!").
So Tashnu isn't going to
Submitted by Devin on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 12:44.So Tashnu isn't going to follow in Shus, Vash and Paul's example.
Devin, Tashnu could have
Submitted by Lothere on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 13:34.Devin, Tashnu could have been a virgin when he was married, but he was married super-young, at 16. To a 14-year-old! Hmm! I'm sure there was an interesting story behind that...
Van, I really have NO IDEA how Alred or Egelric would react to news of Gwynn's pregnancy. (Or Margaret's but let's stick with Gwynn's.) Alred is pretty scary in daddy mode (we saw with Cedric) but what would he do? Would he be furious or simply devastated? Or would he say "Oh my God she really is just like her mother" and admit no mortal means could have prevented it? I don't think the difference in ranks would bother him at this point -- he personally elevated Egelric to the rank he has now, and Finn has that extra je ne sais quoi from being raised among elven nobility (Alred is a wee bit of a Vash fanboy himself), and he promised Matilda that Gwynn could marry any man who loved her sufficiently.
There's no doubt Finn would have to marry her though... and I would assume they would hush it up as best they could, but you know how well that works. Especially if they get married at 16 and 15 or something.
Father Matthew would have to marry them, though, which would be quite a chapter in its own right.
What would Egelric do though? Wow... When you see the look he gave Alred in "Gwynn learns the meaning of handsome" it seems like the Egelric of the moment would just smirk. On the other hand, there was his honorable behavior in Connie's regard in "Egelric is the formidable father"...
Actually now that I think of it, I can imagine Egelric doing the "O HAI IS DIS UR DOTTER" thing if he was the one who got Gwynn pregnant, but if Finn did it, heads might yet be ripped from their thoraxes. Drama either way!
As for Margaret, to be honest I think Alred's reaction would be different if it were Margaret. He might have a certain amount of indulgence for Gwynn in that situation, since he's simultaneously both projecting Matilda on her and also deliberately keeping her as innocent as he can... but maybe he would have a little less for Margaret. And oh man if it were Margaret and Conrad after the talk he had with Conrad... talk about being disappointed in someone!
Hmmm.... Gwynn should
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 18:16.Hmmm....
Gwynn should definitely keep her legs closed. So we can get a Gwynn becomes a wife scene on her wedding night. Complete with the wedding processional and pics.
Big stupid! I didn't log
Submitted by Tiffany on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 18:21.Big stupid!
I didn't log in!
That would be awesome. Finn
Submitted by Lothere on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 18:22.That would be awesome. Finn with his ears all pink from blushingness. Gwynn all drunk and horny and not knowing what it is she wants but wanting it NOW! If told from the perspective of Finn... it might indeed resemble Brit's POV.
Awesome indeed!
Submitted by Tiffany on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 18:23.Awesome indeed!
I feel so woozy when I think
Submitted by Tiffany on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 18:29.I feel so woozy when I think about that little exchange almost as if I was there!
I'm already planning their wedding via modthesims2.
In my opinion, if there is a
Submitted by Van on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 22:20.In my opinion, if there is a "Gwynn becomes a wife" chapter, I think I'd like to see it from Gwynn's point of view because it would be such a perfect contrast to Brit's. And then the two of them could discuss it the day after... that might be interesting... but that's just me, and unfortunately, we're still years away from Gwynn and Finn's wedding
But eeeeeeee, that last chapter got me soooooo excited! Their faces got so close in so many pictures, I half-expected them to grab each other and start making out at any given moment. You could just feel the chemistry! Oh, I can't wait for them to get hitched and hook up and have tons of babies with pretty eyelashes and incredibly Scottish noses...
Sorry about that, that last bit should have probably gone in the comments on that chapter instead of here.
There was an awesome OMG are
Submitted by Lothere on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 05:24.There was an awesome OMG are they gonna kiss?? picture in this last chapter, which sadly I was unable to use due to Gwynn's apparent perkiness. What a scene this would have made in a movie! Just watching the two of them moving around each other...
You will have to count on me to pick the best POV when the time comes. Surprisingly it is quite rare that I ever want to tell a chapter from two POVs. Sometimes it takes me a while to decide (I often make up my mind while I'm taking the pictures), and on a few occasions I even got half-way through before I realized it wasn't working and rewrote from another POV, but really, it is almost always obvious to me who should tell any given chapter.
I wonder if that is common among writers? It's just like with the characters... you mysteriously know what they will do and say, and on a higher level it's the same with the story... you mysteriously know who the story wants on center stage. OK enough writer wanking...
As for Gwynn and Finn, I admit I have a hard time imagining their wedding night coming off like Brit and Dunstan's. The whole procession and the blessing of the bed and all that. It's just so tame.
Gwynn needs romance! Their marriage will be more like some breathless affair at midnight in a crumbling abbey, while a band of angry torch-wielding villains gallops up the hill in pursuit. And their first time (which may or may not coincide with their wedding night) won't be some quiet business in a big, freshly-made bed with all the candles lit and her brother getting drunk downstairs. No no.
Yes, this sort of thing is straight out of hackneyed romance novels, but THAT'S GWYNN! I can go hog-wild with the hackneyed. It will be awesome.
Ooooo, do you think they'll
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 09:32.Ooooo, do you think they'll elope? I think I remember you saying something about that being Gwynn's ultimate romantic ideal.
Gaaaaah, why do I keep
Submitted by Van on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 09:33.Gaaaaah, why do I keep forgetting to log in? Damn exam stress!
Well, given what happened to
Submitted by Lothere on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 09:53.Well, given what happened to her grandmother -- and, in a sense, the way her parents were married -- Gwynn is bound to find elopement the ultimate expression of ROMANCE in a marriage. (Of course, she thought Brit's wedding SO ROMANTIC too, but then again she was tipsy at the time.)
However I don't think it would just be a "Let's run away and get married" elopement.
I probably shouldn't speculate about this since it really ought to be years away... and we still need to go through the whole "just friends" + Christine + Royal Garnder phase (forgive me if I got the names wrong... it's been years since I read the AoGG series)...
But I do think those two deserve something more dramatic than that. There's so much fireworks there, it seems a shame to waste it on an ordinary wedding or even an ordinary Gretna Green type of elopement. When those two are in conflict with each other, that's when the poetic rightness of their relationship really comes out. So their wedding ought to be the ultimate expression of THAT.
Therefore I don't think the figurative torch-wielding villains will just be Alred and his men galloping in to try to stop the wedding in time.
But what about Finn? Finn is
Submitted by PenelopetheFox on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 12:52.But what about Finn? Finn is so very unromantic. What would he prefer.
*giggles giddily*
These two are so much fun.
Finn would probably love the
Submitted by Lothere on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 12:54.Finn would probably love the swashbuckling aspect of the tale, but he would just want to skip all the mushy parts, which does not bode well for the wedding.
I forgot about Finn's sense
Submitted by PenelopetheFox on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 12:59.I forgot about Finn's sense of adventure! Oh how perfect are they for one another as masculine/feminine archetypes?
Plus they will make cute
Submitted by Lothere on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 13:01.Plus they will make cute babies!
You already know what their
Submitted by PenelopetheFox on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 13:04.You already know what their babies will look like?
*shifty eyes* I actually
Submitted by Lothere on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 13:14.*shifty eyes*
I actually made some Old-Cearball + Gwynn babies just to see whether Old-Cearball was worth saving. After that I needed to make some Finn + Gwynn babies just to douse my burning eyes. Egelric makes some scary-looking offspring, but Finn is prettified enough from his mother's genes to make attractive kids. They are Egelric-y, but in a good way. The ugliest among them was prettier than poor Jehanne.
In truth, I have rarely bothered to make test-babies with my Sim couples, even though I almost always grow new babies up to peek at them as adults. The only other times that come to mind are the Cian + Eithne series I published on Verso, and the one Vashlaine kid I made long, long ago.
No I am not showing any pictures, so don't ask.
Por favor?
Submitted by Tiffany on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 16:19.Por favor?
OK Fine. Have an
Submitted by Lothere on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 16:26.OK Fine. Have an Old-Cearball Alien Spawn.
SPEW!!
Submitted by PenelopetheFox on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 16:31.SPEW!!
Actually, that's an
Submitted by Tiffany on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 17:16.Actually, that's an interesting looking person. We need some more interesting looking Lotherians!
Tiffany, meet the
Submitted by Lothere on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 19:45.Tiffany, meet the Interesting Family.
I reserve the soap opera writer's right to make all my main characters be gorgeous, however.
If by "interesting" you mean
Submitted by PenelopetheFox on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 20:05.If by "interesting" you mean "unfortunate", then I agree entirely.
But it's one thing to have unattractive characters (à la "The Interesting Family") and another thing to have a character that looks a bit like a genetic throwback.
And semi-related (I've been wondering this one for a while)- After you do plastic surgery on a sim, does that sim pass down his/her new and improved facial features or the ones that he/she was born with?
That's Old-Cearball's kid
Submitted by Lothere on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 20:06.That's Old-Cearball's kid THANK GOD. I haven't made any test-babies with New-Cearball though, so you never know...
If you do plastic surgery, the genes don't change. The Sim has two facial structure files then, and it uses the original one for genes and the new one for rendering the Sim. (If you do plastic surgery again, it just rewrites the old plastic surgery so the genes never change.) However, if you have SimPE you can copy the new facial structure on top of the old and that effectively changes the genes. I've done it before.
Drat! I was hoping that
Submitted by PenelopetheFox on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 20:12.Drat! I was hoping that wasn't the case. I'm worried about how a certain couple of mine will breed in the future. I'm expecting hideous, hideous freak children.
Eadweard died on my
Submitted by Sam on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 18:32.Eadweard died on my birthday...
...am I a horrible person to
Submitted by Van on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 23:11....am I a horrible person to hope that none of those "interesting" features get into Lothere's main gene pool?
No, that just means you're
Submitted by Lothere on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 03:38.No, that just means you're on my side with the soap opera theory.
Does K know Estrid is
Submitted by Van on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 21:30.Does K know Estrid is married? Men aren't always the most observant of creatures, so it's possible he didn't notice her wedding ring...
I'm not sure he noticed the
Submitted by Lothere on Sat, 01/24/2009 - 06:35.I'm not sure he noticed the ring at the time, you're right there. Estrid was rather distracting.
Now that he's done the deed, however, if he thinks he's subtle enough not to raise suspicions he will probably try to find out. Not because Oooh he wants to marry her, but because he will want to know whether he has an ass-kicking coming his way. He knows his English is not so hot, but he speaks Gaelic and Norse, and there are a few lower-class Gaelic-speakers in Lothere. He might be able to gossip his way into that information down at the tavern.
But maybe I shouldn't wonder about that too much yet. I think the next time we see Estrid and K it will be from K's point of view, so I can answer all these questions and more!
(He has to be at least a little freaked out though. Even if she's not married, she's Brass-Dog's sister, which might be worse.)
I'm guessing Alred's
Submitted by Van on Sun, 01/25/2009 - 21:16.I'm guessing Alred's sister's death was sort of like his first daughter's, but how did his brother die?
I'm glad you asked about
Submitted by Lothere on Mon, 01/26/2009 - 06:05.I'm glad you asked about this, because I think the death of his little brother affected Alred a lot, even though it's not something he talks about much. I can only remember two occasions when I mentioned him:
From "Alred and Matilda come to say goodbye":
I am sure Alred was projecting some of his own surprise and consternation on the poor little body back then.
The other one I can't find, but I seem to remember Alred telling Matilda about how he and his little brother used to wait until their grandfather was snoring on the couch after dinner and try to pitch berries or grapes into his mouth.
I don't think Alred has any special guilt about that death -- as in, he wasn't responsible for it in any way -- except maybe survivor's guilt.
Given what we've seen of Alred's father's treatment of him, the way he called him a worthless snivelling brat and so on, I can imagine Yware being a bigger and stronger and braver and better boy in every way, and perhaps the old man was sorry that Alred was the eldest and heir, and Alred heartily agreed.
So perhaps when Yware died, Alred was just furthered along in his career of wondering why worthless sniveling him gets all the glory why the good people around him die. I do think they were very close though, and it's one of those hurts that he's been carrying around unlightened all these years.
I don't know how he died though. Maybe a childhood illness, but at that age it could easily have been something like an accident hunting or fighting or even playing. But not Alred's fault anyway. I doubt he would have lived to adulthood if he had guilt over his brother's death piled on top of all his other anguish and sorrows.
Egelric is good buddies with
Submitted by Van on Tue, 01/27/2009 - 14:44.Egelric is good buddies with both Alred and Leofric, what's his opinion on the situation there?
Lothere do you know if the
Submitted by Devin on Tue, 01/27/2009 - 15:13.Lothere do you know if the elves are buried in coffins like the men?
Also was Egelric present when Vash Shosudin and (Tashnu?) supposedly buried Sela?
Wow, Van, you really threw
Submitted by Lothere on Tue, 01/27/2009 - 16:44.Wow, Van, you really threw me with that one. I had to think about that.
There's no doubt Egelric's loyalties ultimately lie with Alred. Even his friendship at Leof was, at times, just his rebellious-child-ish way of thumbing his nose at Alred, so it's all about Alred one way or another.
Egelric and Leof are not on the best of terms right now. I don't think they've been bad together since Gwynn caught Leof making out with Cat in his very own castle. Egelric still has a grudge about that. And now the whole thing with Hetty...
Well, Egelric loves Hetty quite a lot. Looking around at the possibilities, he probably loves Hetty more than any female left alive except for his daughters and granddaughter. Egelric and Hetty spent a lot of time alone together while Egelric was in town, nominally when Egelric was visiting Baby-Flann, but really they both have trying to blindly help the other and getting it all wrong. I don't know if we'll ever know more about those hours together, but they've been in the back of my mind.
But Hetty has never told him she loves Leofric. She had been trying so hard to be good and forget him, up to the end when she got that poem and she gave Haakon that key. So Egelric has no idea that Hetty has any feelings for Leofric, and he has absolutely no idea at all that Leofric has any real feelings for her, besides his usual "feeling ladies" feelings. Egelric, like everyone else on earth besides maybe young & old Sigefrith and Eadie, thinks he was just after sex. Maybe the extra-thrilling sex that is sex with Alred's wife, since he seems to take perverse pleasure in it.
So anyway, Egelric sees Hetty as a kind of victim of Leofric's talents of seduction (since Egelric himself has his own and has spoiled many a young maiden therewith), which makes Leof a villain in the affair. And likewise Alred is a victim of what is starting to look like Leofric's pernicious project to sleep with every woman Alred loves. (Look out, Gwynn!) So if I were Leof I would stay away from Egelric at the moment.
Does Egelric think anything is amiss between Hetty and Alred? Perhaps so. But I don't think he's in a state of mind to try to do anything about it right now if he does.
As for you, Devin, you're stealing other people's threads!
But to answer your question... no I don't think they're buried in coffins. Doesn't make much sense, if the purpose is to return the body to the earth, to box it up first. Elfleda was buried in a coffin (at least the first time) but she was buried by men.
Egelric was not present when they buried Sela. He knows where she is buried, however. So does Imin.
I could have sworn I posted
Submitted by Devin on Tue, 01/27/2009 - 17:09.I could have sworn I posted my question in my thread; I'm having a senior moment.
IMIN knows where she's buried!! I was hoping Aia knew.
Hmmm... does Aia know where
Submitted by Van on Tue, 01/27/2009 - 17:42.Hmmm... does Aia know where Sela is buried? And does Lar know, I wonder...
I don't think Aia knows.
Submitted by Lothere on Tue, 01/27/2009 - 17:50.I don't think Aia knows. She might know vaguely that it's far across the valley, but she doesn't know the lay of the land on the other side, so no one could even explain it to her. Anyway, she could never make it that far on her own, at least not on her own two feet. The elves are good at navigating by natural landmarks, as we saw once with Vash and Iylaine, but Aia never got out much due to her handicap, so it's not something she's good at. She knew Nothelm because Sela had once pointed it out to her, and it's quite the landmark.
Imin and Aia do not talk, so if only Imin knows, then she wouldn't easily find out, either.
Lar probably knows. Those elves know everything that happens near the lake. However, Lar doesn't tell everything to all his men, so if he knows it, it is probably more like a secret between his four. We know he hasn't told the whole truth about how she died, so he probably wishes that memory would just go away.
Or maybe Imin is the only elf who knows where she is, besides the four who buried her, and he's keeping it a secret from everybody. Haven't decided yet...
"so he probably wishes that
Submitted by Devin on Tue, 01/27/2009 - 18:06."so he probably wishes that memory would just go away."
What an asshole.
Pol and Dru were pretty
Submitted by Van on Sat, 01/31/2009 - 18:10.Pol and Dru were pretty close friends, weren't they? Do you think Dru might have told Pol something about Lar? Maybe not all the details of their mysterious meeting or anything, but did Pol at least know that Lar was Dru's son?
Pol and Dru were close
Submitted by Lothere on Sat, 01/31/2009 - 20:35.Pol and Dru were close friends, even if they were a rather odd couple. In one chapter I think I had Finn remembering the comforting sound of the two elves talking softly in the other room when he was falling asleep at night.
I haven't really thought too much about how they became friends or why they were. It is fertile territory. I wonder if sometimes it wasn't just Pol trying to keep Dru busy so he wouldn't do nasty things. Even though Pol may not have done anything more to stop it than this sort of passive obstructing.
I do have the sense that Pol knew some things about Dru that no one else knew. What exactly...
What I do know is that if Pol knew Lar was Dru's son, he never told.
I know you use the
Submitted by Van on Sat, 02/07/2009 - 17:22.I know you use the moveobjects cheat for a lot of your pictures, which makes me wonder what you do for chapters shot on community lots. Is there some sort of mod or cheat that enables buy and build modes on community lots, or are all your lots residential?
I have no community
Submitted by Lothere on Sat, 02/07/2009 - 17:31.I have no community lots.
Shortest. Answer. Ever.
Yeah, taking photos for
Submitted by PenelopetheFox on Sat, 02/07/2009 - 18:02.Yeah, taking photos for chapters is almost impossible on community lots. I know first hand. Not being able to go into the buy and build modes puts a severe hinderance on... everything.
So I recently reread that
Submitted by Van on Mon, 02/09/2009 - 21:35.So I recently reread that chapter where Oswald was visiting Mouse and Wyn and Matilda, and a few questions came to mind.
1) Do you think Matilda loves her unborn child, despite its conception? This might have been mentioned in earlier chapters with her, but I don't remember.
2) Is the Osgyth that Oswald was seeing that rather bitchy friend of Wynna and Colburga's, Leofwine's little sister? If so, how is that whole pregnancy/tricked a guy into marrying her thing going for her?
3) Just because I got to thinking about question 2, are Ethelmund and his family on speaking terms with Sophie? Might be a stupid question, since she did kill his nephew, but he was only a nephew by marriage, and I would imagine Ethelmund and Sophie got along at least decently well before Leofwine's death, so...
1) I believe we've only had
Submitted by Lothere on Tue, 02/10/2009 - 06:01.1) I believe we've only had the two chapters with Matilda ("Matilda is welcomed home" and "Matilda has no idea") and so far she doesn't seem to have much affection for the baby. So far we've only had this, from the chapter you read:
Of course that was back in September. I will speculate a little bit, though I plan to do a Matilda chapter or two in the next week or so, and maybe prove myself wrong in the story.
I think she's still not feeling any great affection for her baby. I think it is very hard for her to conceptualize the baby that's in there, given all the yuckiness of the situation surrounding it. It's the child of a terrifying rape, and it's an elf's child, so not only is it traumatic for her, it's also something that makes the people around her very uneasy.
We're talking about a culture so superstitious that menstruating women aren't allowed to churn the butter for fear the milk will turn, so you can imagine what some of the less "educated" (and I use that term generously, since even the Alreds and Ralfs of the world would probably agree it's best to leave the churning to women not in any particular "condition") people think of her being pregnant with an elf baby. They're afraid her mere presence will bring the wrath of the elves down on their heads -- like what if the elves come to take the baby back? Or to kill it? Or decide they like it so much they want to make a bunch more? Plus you remember how people were afraid of Iylaine and her evil eye.
So I don't think the servants in the house like her, since she has unfairly been promoted to practically being a lady's companion as the "prize" for having an illegitimate kid. (And there may be some who believe she made up the elf rape story to hide a liaison of her own desiring.) And they and the other people of the village don't like her and actively fear her due to her baby being an elf.
AND on top of all this, she has to deal with a sort of "survivor's guilt" right now, since Mouse lost her dearly-beloved baby, while Matilda is still tottering around with her rape-spawn in her belly. Obviously she's wondering why Mouse's baby died when her own is still alive, and worst of all, I think Ethelwyn wonders the same thing, and even if he's too polite to say it aloud, Matilda must feel it every time he looks at her.
That's why I'm sorry I never found the time to write much about her during her pregnancy. I bet some chapters from her POV or showing her daily life would have been interesting. Because of the anti-elf phobia of a lot of the people on her level of society, plus the whole dynamic with a resentful Ethelwyn and a Mouse too weak to defend her -- it would have been more than just a "Oh, look how rough peasant life is" foil for the pampered existence of Gwynn and her peers.
2) That's the same Osgyth. I just noticed I have never yet updated her family tree to include her husband and upcoming baby... I really need to do that. So I don't know exactly how that's going for her. Her new husband probably won't be the classiest man around... maybe a tradesman but certainly not a gentleman. Too bad she didn't wait for Shirtless K. But really, if she had behaved herself and she and her Mama had done the right sort of plotting she might just barely have aspired to a knight. Her brother had been one, and he had been sorta friends with Eadwyn, who has friends back home...
3) Uhhh... That's a good question. Sophie's station always was far above theirs -- she was a Saxon baron's granddaughter, and it was only because she married down that she entered into that circle at all. Now she's married to Stein, who's the grandson of a Norse princess and all around Great Lady (to the point that he is identified as "son of Gamle, son of Astrid" rather than "son of Gamle, son of Olaf"), she's actually stepped up in the world from where she was at birth. So given that and just the awkwardness of the situation I don't think anyone would expect her to call at the house of her dead husband's family-by-marriage, where she might even meet her dead husband's mother or brother or sister. Ethelmund probably has to pick sides, and he would be obliged to go with his first wife's sister's side, I think.
Now, Stein does know Gunnilda from back in the days when he and Bertie used to hang out together, so knowing Stein I suppose that he has at least talked to Ethelmund since all this happened and sort of smoothed things over. "No hard feelings" but they won't drop in for a piece of cake, if you know what I mean.
And now that Lili's dead, Estrid is the closest thing to a best friend that Sophie has, and we know what a snob she is, too. Estrid is definitely way off in the stratosphere in terms of what sort of people she'll notice. She was not raised in Lothere in the days when the King could drop in to a peasant's shack -- she was raised in the court of Norway. Sophie likewise is "old money" so I don't see her looking back now that she's hanging out with the likes of Stein and Estrid and Edris. In some of her chapters with Leofwine she was thinking about how vulgar and ill-bred he was, so she's surely relieved to be back among her own kind.
I'm guessing that Alred
Submitted by Van on Tue, 02/10/2009 - 22:17.I'm guessing that Alred wasn't a virgin when he got married, since he's a man, but was Matilda? I don't imagine she slept around with a lot of guys or anything like that, but maybe she and Alred had a little fun a while before their mysterious wedding night?
Also, how do you think Sigefrith's older kids reacted when they found out that their mother had cheated on their father? It's clear from later chapters that they don't think badly of her or anything, but they must have had some initial sort of shock/denial/other reaction?
Alred is too much of a
Submitted by Tiffany on Wed, 02/11/2009 - 03:33.Alred is too much of a gentleman and a romantic to have sex with anyone but his beloved...
Alred certainly was not a
Submitted by Lothere on Wed, 02/11/2009 - 05:58.Alred certainly was not a virgin on his wedding knight. The Church might have had other opinions, but I don't think was anything in the 11th century definition of Gentleman or Romantic that prevented a man from sleeping around before marriage (with the right sort of woman of course). He must have alluded to it in various chapters... I can't think of any off the top of my head, but Leofric and Sigefrith sure aren't shy about talking about their teenaged "interesting adventures" as Sigefrith calls them. Alred may have brought it up with Dunstan before his marriage, in an "when I was your age" moment.
Matilda certainly was a virgin, however. Her father guarded her very closely, in spite of (or I guess because of) letting her come with him to Men Only situations. (Not THAT sort of situations, but the Men Only dinner table probably got pretty bawdy back in those days.) And after her father died, she really clammed up. There was no man good enough for her because no man was her father. Harold didn't bother trying to marry her off, I guess because he knew how futile that would be. (And dangerous to the other man's face.)
Matilda and Alred actually didn't have a premarital romance of the sort that would have admitted any fooling around. I don't think they even kissed before their wedding night. Not because of some courtly love ideal (this is before that time anyway) but because Alred was still busy making a fool of himself slipping poetry into her porridge, and Matilda was still "HA HA HA!"-ing at him every time she saw him, and stamping her foot, and generally being disdainful. And then one night, in situations that have never been made clear except that they involved drunkenness, Matilda stole off with him (or stole HIM) and got married and kissed him and had sex with him all in the same night, and that was that.
I mean, I think they talked and stuff. There's plenty of room for engaging conversation with a man you are pretending to scorn. Plenty of chances for dinner table debates. Plenty of opportunities to slip out into the garden and lift your nose into the air and scorn him all the way around the pond a few times with your hand on his elbow. But kissing? It is very hard to kiss a man scornfully, though if I know Gwynn she's dying to try.
(More than anything except maybe the story of Lar, the Matilda + Alred romance is the thing that makes me wish I did flashbacks...)
As for Sigefrith's kids, hmm... I wonder when they even learned. It seems like they were so young, plus it's the kind of thing that was probably whispered about long before Sigefrith ever sat them down and told them it was so (if he ever did, which I'm not sure about), so like Sigefrith they probably just gradually knew. There's not much opportunity for shock and outrage there. Maybe denial, but over time that wears down. It doesn't make for an exciting chapter in any case.
The more interesting study is how they are all handling it now. We've seen Brit go through this the most, with her sense that she understood what her mother had gone through, being forced to marry (and kiss and sleep with) a man she didn't love. She even fancied that it was enough to make a woman go mad. She may have had some resentment since she is Daddy's girl, but we saw her forgive her mother in real time. And now she's moved on to loving Dunstan, which makes me think it would be interesting to re-examine the question in that light. Does she ever wonder "Why didn't Mother just learn to love him?" She's only 15, I don't think it unlikely she blames her mother again. She may think she succeeded in loving Dunstan through her own determined efforts... and her father is so very lovable after all... so her mother has no excuse except unwillingness to try.
Caedwulf is probably the one most in denial. He worships his father in a way not many 16-year-old boys ever do, but he believes himself Mama's boy. So there is a definite conflict he has to rationalize away. I would suppose he has successfully transferred all the blame to Malcolm, as in: evil evil mustache-twirling Malcolm seduced his poor innocent mother, and drove her to the brink of madness. And Sigefrith has already warned Malcolm that if Caedwulf ever learns it was Malcolm who "attacked her" at the abbey and pushed her over the brink... I still think it would be intense if Caedwulf killed Cubby's father someday. "We are Maud's children" indeed.
We haven't seen nearly enough of what goes through Emma's head, so I can't say how she feels. She doesn't remember her mother. Already at four she admitted she didn't remember her. Maud has probably been made most real to her by Caedwulf's cult to her ghost, which is a creepy mom to have, really. She's quite satisfied with Eadie as a stepmother, and probably doesn't fret about Maud. However, she may when she gets a little older and the reality of her arranged marriage and so on begins sinking in. Emma is quite frank and pragmatic (rather like Margaret from what little we've seen), so she's not the type to fret and sigh anyway, but on the other hand she may be the type to justify her own future adultery by saying "Well my mother did it, and now I know why!"
That leaves Cubby. Poor sweet slightly wicked Cubby. We've had remarkably little from his POV I think. He's just a little loving ball of self-conflict, is that boy. I think the only way he can love is without asking questions -- how else could he love Sigefrith and Malcolm at the same time? How else could he love his mother, who only exists in his mind as memories of being terrified of her? I can't imagine what it was like for him, being forced to leave home at 5, and the strangers he was suddenly living with gradually growing into the only family he clearly recalls, and slowly realizing that he looks just like them, and slowly realizing there's one in particular who pays extra-special attention to him... It's like some kind of tragic Ugly Duckling epilogue. And the poor little fellow carrying that "secret everyone knows" around inside of him until he finally forced Sigefrith to admit it.
I guess it would have been quite different for all of the kids if Maud had run away with Malcolm or something sudden and acute had happened. Then there might have been outrage and devastation and all that. But as it played out, it just seems like one of those things they always sort of knew. They never reacted to their mother's adultery, because their mother had always been an adulteress, and that's just the way it was. When you're six you don't really have other worlds to compare your own to, so whatever you get is normal. What they make of that as they get older and realize it might have been different... and especially as they build their own lives and their own marriages and relationships... well, that's what novels are for.
Er- Speaking of Alred (and
Submitted by PenelopetheFox on Wed, 02/11/2009 - 09:38.Er- Speaking of Alred (and I'm sorry if someone has asked this question before or even if I asked this question before) but when ran himself through, was that what he had planned to do from the moment he drew his sword? Or was he first thinking that he was going to kill Leofric?
I don't think anyone has
Submitted by Lothere on Wed, 02/11/2009 - 10:00.I don't think anyone has asked it before. I don't remember answering it.
I was OK with leaving that question open to the reader's interpretation, but since you asked...
(the chapter)
I think he knew he was going to kill himself from the beginning. But the only thing that really confirms it (to me) is that line "I do not want my son to see this!"
However, some of the things he said before that are so achingly ambiguous that I think it could only have been intentional. "Now, by God, I shall never have to speak to you again" and "If I let you live now, I could never look another man in the face again" come to mind.
He never said he was going to kill Leofric. I think he wanted to see him cowering. I think he wanted to scare him shitless.
And then, I think, he wanted to leave Leofric with the image of him killing himself with Leofric's own sword, and the guilt of that, which may have been a greater punishment than merely killing him.
We saw Leofric through Cedric's eyes afterwards, and he was absolutely unmanned. I don't think Leofric will ever truly get over that. Lately he seems to have been taking a certain strength from his love affair with Hetty, but I don't think he'll ever be the same. He seemed to turn old that day.
(And this, years after Leofric had this thought:
Though that, of course, Alred never knew.)
If "Vash" means "dark water"
Submitted by Van on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 09:49.If "Vash" means "dark water" or "first water", what do some of the other elf names mean?
EDIT: Also, before I forget, I remember you saying something about Matilda having some sort of diabetes or something that made her pregnancies so difficult. Is there a chance that either Gwynn or Meggie will have this as well?
Any elf in particular? You
Submitted by Lothere on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 10:00.Any elf in particular? You can look most of them up yourself, they're nearly all in there.
Just remember that female names have an "-a" tacked onto the end, and on occasion that means changing the ending slightly to remove a weak vowel ("a" or "i" without an accent) before the last consonant -- e.g "Madra" is from the word "madar".
And Iylaine's elven name is " Ílléna".
Matilda had a problem with gestational diabetes. Wiki seems to suggest that it and diabetes in general can run in families, so there you go. Gwynn seems to have her mother's short and curvy body type much more than Margaret does, so I would suppose Gwynn has a greater risk.
Nooooo Gwynn and Finn's
Submitted by Van on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 22:38.Nooooo Gwynn and Finn's unborn babies must not wreak havoc upon their mother, aside from the occasional kick... or, since they are Finn's babies, maybe the occasional sneeze.
Hey, do Alred and Gunnie
Submitted by Van on Fri, 02/13/2009 - 22:42.Hey, do Alred and Gunnie still see each other occasionally? Does she know about his suicide attempt?
Hmm. They do still see each
Submitted by Lothere on Sat, 02/14/2009 - 04:53.Hmm. They do still see each other but they are not SUCH good friends that he would tell her about that. Everyone thinks that Leof & Alred fought and that's how he got wounded. Very few people actually know the truth of that -- I don't think even Bertie knows. And even to the people who think they fought, it's such a touchy subject that they wouldn't bring it up...
I don't know, I would have to see them in a chapter together to get a better feel for how their relationship is going. We will probably at least see them together in a room sometime by the end of this year or early the next.
Regardless of whether or not
Submitted by Van on Wed, 02/18/2009 - 22:53.Regardless of whether or not he actually does, do you think Brede still thinks he loves Estrid? Or does he just prefer to not think about her and their children whenever possible?