WOW it never occured to me that Hetty always paints herself as a martyr but I do realize it now. Its sad that baby is going to be born at a very rough time for his parents.

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Nimue, I love the note idea! It's so ironic, and like you said, it's poetic justice. Love it.

OK I am finally getting a chance to respond properly to this interesting conversation. (I was too busy doing this you see.)

You make a good point that Hetty is now aware that she is not what Matilda was to Alred, and that she probably never will be. That is hard to bear, no matter how affectionate Alred is with her. Hetty always wanted her "one man... just one man who loved me more than Lili"... and now even if she knows Alred never loved Lili, she knows she's still second-best to Matilda. If she stays with Alred, she will never have her "one man." So in that sense I can't blame her for wanting Leofric's love.

And also, it is in some sense heartening to see her proactively going after him. It's the first time she's really showed some spunk and up and taken something she wanted. It's just so tragic that it's something she can't have -- not without destroying a lot of relationships around her.

As for her martyrdom, I don't think it's intentional or conscious, but she is on some level aware that she's doing it, and she believes that it is a virtue. That's why she was so shocked when Leofric didn't praise her for it, as everyone else does. "Oh that Hetty... always so generous and selfless..." If you can't bring yourself to be selfish, I suppose it is some satisfaction to be praised for selflessness.

But Hetty is trying to have it both ways... she does everything she can think of to convince people she's fine, and then she resents them for not realizing that she isn't fine. That's her crime.

(For some reason this reminds me of Brit back when Dunstan was pursuing her, and Brit would wonder why oh why Dunstan couldn't get the hint that she didn't want to be alone with him... but then down-to-earth, level-headed Brit reminded herself that she was actually trying to fool him, so it wasn't fair to him to blame him for being fooled. *hearts Brit*)

I love the idea of another mislaid letter. Audacious... but so poetically/ironically right. Another Lotherian misunderstanding.

But somehow I can't see that being the appropriate way to bring them together again. That would be like building a relationship on a second lie. There is just too much of a hint of tragedy in that idea... not to mention the forever lingering fear that Alred would eventually learn the truth.

I think it would be a brilliant way to utterly destroy their relationship, however, if that's what I choose to do. There would definitely be poetic rightness in that. Let Alred find the poem, let his heart start to melt, let their relationship start to rebuild itself....... and then he learns the truth. Death knell.

The little notes and poems and things is a much sweeter and better idea. Remember how Hetty had that brief moment of hope that Alred was attempting to start over again with her by hiding a poem written just for her in her Psalter? It totally would have worked if he had. That idea actually gives me an idea of my own, which I won't detail yet in case I decide to use it after all. Risky... but it just might work.

How does Alred love Hetty? Well. On the one hand we have "his gracious and brave and very dear wife", minutes before he finds her with Leofric. On the other hand, after he wakes up, he finds "it was his heart that had died". A very enigmatic phrase, that. It's the last message from Alredland that we've had, regarding his feelings for Hetty.

I think he did love her, very much. It isn't as if he thought he did for a while, then gradually realized he didn't, even though that is one possible interpretation of the whole "And so not to tell me my mistake, he married me!" situation. If you look at the chapter when he proposed to Hetty, it is possible to interpret that as Alred getting "carried away", à la Finn, opening up the possibility for him to have second thoughts later.

But I don't think it's the case. He has some very touching, affectionate scenes with Hetty in the years following -- such as "Hetty has an idea" or "Alred considers a ban". I think he did love her as much as he could love any woman who wasn't Matilda. His role was completely different in this new relationship, but I think that was OK. That might have actually helped him, since that meant the relationship couldn't possibly be compared to his marriage with Matilda, and it was probably also good for him to wear the pants a little more and really be responsible for a woman who actually needed being taken care of.

But... I guess the problem is that he failed at that aspect of things. (He failed out of an instinct of self-pity, as he said himself.) He wasn't there for her when she needed him, and that was what started the whole decline.

I said that "Alred wields his words" was the last chapter from which we got Alred's POV about Hetty, but I guess it isn't true. There's this bit from "Alred makes a monument of a man":

Egelric was calm now, and beneath his lifted brows the mere flickering of candlelight was plain.  Whatever had been boiling up in him a moment before had suddenly cooled, and though it might have hardened his heart against Aia and all women forever, Alred wanted to let it stand.

He would not allow Egelric to make the mistake he had.  Egelric must remain as he was now: a pillar of pure love and pure sorrow that would stand for all ages, unmuddied, undented, ungrooved, unchanging, long after the brittle shell of the man had flaked away.

He would not allow Egelric to make the mistake he had. I think it's plain that the "mistake" he means was marrying Hetty -- sullying his pure, perfect love for Matilda with a second romance.

That chapter is really painful for me to read. I didn't want to write it at all -- I really fought against it. But it is just so true. That chapter really shows Alred in all his manipulative, co-dependent, morbidly grieving ugliness. I will grant him that it was a moment of weakness. It was late, and he was a bit overwrought by the whole affair with Aia, and the idea of what Egelric's reaction would be. But it's true.

So between that and "his heart that had died", it seems safe to say that his feelings for Hetty have changed or even simply been annihilated. I don't think Hetty is imagining things when she thinks that Alred is avoiding her -- I just don't know who "started it". I do think there is a very real possibility that Hetty's behavior since his suicide attempt has made things worse -- that's been the revelation to me, because until recently it was just "poor Hetty" and Alred was the emotionally withdrawn villain. Now I'm not so sure.

I'm also not sure that things can be turned around in Alred's heart. He may become affectionate again and give the appearance of a loving husband (and Hetty may even fall for it, since she wants so badly to believe), but the whole supposed affair with Leofric may have spoiled his love and trust in her forever. It's the one thing he can't bear to forgive. And it's possible that Leofric is one of the things keeping them apart even now -- on Hetty's side because she thinks she's falling in love with him, and therefore bound to get colder with Alred than ever; and on Alred's side because every time he tries to kiss or touch Hetty, he is surely imagining Leofric kissing her and touching her. His imagination couldn't do anything less.

Maybe... just maybe he could come to love her again. But Alred is feeling very humiliated and vulnerable and somewhat emasculated right now... he would probably require a lot of reassurance that Hetty really and truly loves him, and that he can trust her. And Hetty just doesn't seem like she is capable of doing that with all her hesitation and hanging back and waiting for him to make the first move. Plus I rather doubt Alred truly believes that nothing happened. Nobody who knows Leof is going to believe the "just to talk" line -- even though in this case it might have been true.

As for Hetty's feelings for Alred, it's clear at least up until she reads Leofric's poem that she still yearns for him. And honestly, as much as I personally am in love with Leof, I don't think Hetty's love for him is quite real -- at least not yet. She just wants to be loved so badly -- and Leofric provides the extra attraction of being her "one man" -- and she his "one woman" she must presume. Hetty is so, so vulnerable to such a man right now. But even so, I think Hetty's love for Alred is much more likely to be able to be resuscitated than Alred's for her. She wants to be loved, but she would really prefer it be by Alred.

I won't say anything about the key for now since you seem to sense its significance. But it really was significant, and Leof knows it. Regardless of what that particular key is, Leof's poem lamented the lack of the key to a lady's heart, and Hetty sent a key along to him. So with that gesture she is definitely saying that she accepts the love he is offering her, and perhaps even reciprocates it. At the very least she must be saying "it's here if you want it".

What about Leof in all of this? I may be alone, but I feel so sorry for him. He loves Hetty more than she loves him. Even if he's the biggest womanizer in Lothere, and even if the love is illegal and wrong in many ways and he is deserving of heaps of blame, I do absolutely believe he loves her. The only thing in his life that has come close was Matilda, and he knows by now that Matilda never truly loved him at all. (She never even said she did, as he later revealed.)

I know what the next five or six months or so hold for Leof, and I have already admitted that I hope to have the Alred / Hetty relationship straightened out by the time Yware comes home in early spring, so you should be able to guess that my current plans run along the lines of Leof getting his big lovely heart broken in a spectacular way. I don't know how I feel about that. Leof is such a scoundrel, and yet in some ways he is a nobler and better man than Alred.

And even if the Alred & Hetty marriage doesn't work out, it isn't as if Hetty and Leof can be together. (Unless your spiel consisted of a plan for the same.) There's still Eadgith and Alred and all the kids, not to mention the condemnation of their families. It can't work. And yet at times I really wish it could!

Cassie will squawk, but I just don't think Alred has a big enough heart even to silently pretend to ignore a long-distance love affair between Hetty and Leofric. We've seen how "utterly unforgiven" Leof still is over the Matilda affair, even after all these years. At most Alred might be so despondent that he would let it happen out of sheer apathy, but I can't imagine Alred telling Hetty "I can't love you as you deserve to be loved, go off and be loved by someone who can." Not even in his own mind.

Ironically I think Leof is quite capable of that, however. In his attempts to get a message to Hetty after Alred's suicide attempt, his greatest concern was never that she know he loved her, but that she know she is loved by somebody. From "Leofric tries to pass a message":

"Someone could talk to her, Eadgith.  Someone could tell her she isn't to blame.  Someone could—"  He had to pause a moment to take a breath, for tears were stinging the back of his throat.  "—tell her that she is loved.  Simply loved.  She needs to hear it."

"You dare!"

"Tell her, Eadie," he pleaded.

"I shall not pass such—messages—to her from you!"

Such viciousness would have startled Leofric even on her mother.  His own patience had quite run out, but for Hetty's sake he found he was not too proud to beg.

"Not from me, if you don't want," he said softly.  "From you, from anyone, I don't care.  Please, baby, tell her you love her.  Tell her you don't blame her, you don't judge her..."

And from "Affrais finds nothing":

"Hetty, it's—you must know—my uncle—Leofric—loves you."  She stopped and gasped.  The forbidden words were said, and she hoped the rest would be easier.  "More than... utterly.  It's—  No!"

Affrais's voice squeezed off to a sharp squeak of horror.  She had tried to tell him she was not subtle enough to be a messenger!  It was not enough to have once loved a man she could not have.  It was not enough to understand.

"Oh no!  Oh no!" she whimpered.  "I said it wrong!  Please forgive me!  I was supposed to say, 'You are loved!'   That's all that matters, Hetty.  That's what he said.  If you already have all the love you need from someone else, that's fine.  And if you don't love him, that's fine.  He simply wants you to know, if you need love, or if you need to love, you have him.  He loves you with all his heart, Hetty, and... and that's a lot..." she concluded limply.

I honestly think that -- to a point -- if Leofric had the possibility to fix things between Hetty and Alred, he would do it. His love for her is at least that generous. But the problem there is that he is getting a worse and worse opinion of Alred, and may eventually conclude that Alred doesn't deserve Hetty's love and/or never could make her happy.

It may even be why he left just now. He may have wanted to give Alred one last chance to show Hetty she is loved. Remember he wrote the poem and put it in Haakon's hands before Brinstan showed up and he got the idea to go with Theobald. Or he may have been freaking out a little about what he had just done... and he hadn't received the key yet, so he had no idea how she would take it. It may be that the key decided things for him, though. We haven't had his POV since he received the key.

I wonder whether Leof could endure some sort of chaste, long-distance relationship with Hetty. Whether he would be satisfied just knowing they share a great love. (Who would have thought that it would be Leofric to invent courtly love in Lothere. ) He might... he's fifty and has declined a bit since Alred's suicide attempt.

It seems like Hetty is the one who couldn't handle it. She seems to need the affection and the reassurance more. She might survive a year or so on discreet love notes, but I think she would want more.

Back to the misplaced love note plan, I don't think Alred would ever recover from learning that the poem or love letter he believed was for him was actually intended for Leofric, which is why I don't think that idea would work if I used it to bring them together. Either he would never find out, but we would live in dread of him learning, or he would learn and that would be the end of it. Alred is very sensitive both about anything to do with Leofric, and anything to do about his "sublime love" not being enough, so I don't think he would ever get over that humiliation. Moving a marriage past an infidelity is very difficult for anyone, and Alred happens to be a particularly weak man in that regard.

As for Alred and Hetty working out some sort of non-romantic love between them... I'm skeptical about that being successful. It might be fine for Alred -- he already seems to be leading Hetty towards a somewhat chaste marriage where they are lord and lady together, and parents together, but not lovers. That's not at all atypical of the times, of course, but unfortunately it is atypical of both Alred and Hetty. However Alred feels like his heart has died, so it may be the only option left him. But Hetty still wants the big love. She might have done without it if she hadn't been able to find it elsewhere, but Leof is going to look very tempting.

I do think the only hope for a remotely positive outcome is for those two to start talking and explaining to each other just what they are so hurt about, and just what they need from each other. They must come up with something loving -- something more than just lord and lady of the same castle -- otherwise Hetty is going to turn to Leofric for the love business. I doubt Alred could ever love her as he loved Matilda, and he may never even get back to loving Hetty as he did before the "affair", but they could probably come up with something. Alred could use some kissing and cuddling that doesn't involve his children anyway.

So this is what I'm hoping to accomplish by the time Yware gets home. (And Leof will just have to take care of his own big self, as he once said he was capable of doing.) I just have to figure out a way to do it. But it seems daunting... I am not at all sure I will succeed. Not so much because I won't be able to think of anything, but because the characters won't let it work if I do.

And any touching almost-deathbed scene where so-and-so realizes how much (s)he loves so-and-so is off the table. Nor any "oh my God our baby (died / almost died), I love you forever!" nor even a "oh my God we just had a baby together, I love you forever!

No almost-deathbed scenes, please.

But I do think Hetty needs something disturbing... (and some for Alred too). She is so shy, reserved and in her martyr role, it's very difficult for her to open up and tell how she feels. It's also difficult to approach a person who hides herself so well.

Maybe she could have some complications in her pregnancy or she could see something. Something that scares her enough to make her vunerable and say some things she normally wouldn't. IMHO she needs something that would rock her boat enough to make her open up a bit. (And it's easier to open up more after a good start)

Alred should naturally be there for her and after that some sentence would linger in Alred's head and it would lead gradually into series of romantic poems hidden in various places...

But I think that you (and Hetty) are being too harsh on Poor Hetty. She is so shy, kind and mostly acting like a good girl should act. Be kind, be quiet and think others before yourself. Some time ago I read some old advices for a good wife and actually Hetty seems like a perfect 1950's wife. ("Your husband has his heavy duties. Don't bother him with your petty little problems and don't nag if he spends nights away. He has a good reason for everything he does.... and remember to be always pretty and dressed up. He does not want to see an untidy hag when he comes home") Besides christianity has a long tradition of martyrdom. Being a martyr may not sound good for us but killed/raped/mutilated christians may form a great portion of Hetty's female heroines.

I honestly think that she does not know any other way to act. She thinks it's the only morally right way without stopping ever to think about it. It's just that being nice does not make you happy or is not always wise. And chronically unhappy people usually end up in BIGGER problems.

ETA: And think how awful to have a sister like that. She probably got all the attention from their parents, had more friends, got all flirting with young men and after ALL that Hetty thinks her husband preferred Lili. No wonder if Hetty has some problems with her self esteem. She has been practically an invisible girl.

I had another Hetty+Alred thought yesterday on the chat with Cassie, so I wanted to share it here before I forget. (Yes I really do forget these things. This is how I can manage to so often contradict my own opinions of my characters. )

For background reading: "Hetty has an idea"

We were talking about how Lili was such a model wife, especially at the beginning -- before she learned Egelric loved her she felt really guilty about tricking him. And I recalled that Hetty seems to have put a certain amount of thought into being a good wife, which reminded me of "Hetty has an idea":

[Alred talking about Eadie:] “She tries so hard to be a perfect wife that she fails to be a good one.”

“I see,” Hetty said, and she stored this idea away for future consideration. She knew better than to try to be a perfect wife, but she hoped she was being a good wife.

And that whole chapter is such a sweet little portrait of their early relationship, and a rare glimpse of bedroom intimacy for those two. It is also tragically ironic in places:

Hetty’s eyes filled with tears, partly at the thought of the unhappiness of her friends the King and Queen, but also with gratitude at having been given a husband who had such a deep heart and who saw so clearly into the hearts of others. Nothing in her loveless life had even allowed her to believe such men could exist.

There's also this:

[Speaking of Sigefrith's theories about Eadie's thoughts after her baby's death:] “It seems that he thought it was because she blamed him for the baby’s death.”

Hetty was so horrified she thought she must have misunderstood. “He thought she thought he killed the baby? He wasn’t even here!”

“No, no, not directly. He feared she thought that the baby died because he was a sinner, and God wanted to punish him.”

“But we are all sinners,” she whispered.

“Except for this angel,” he said and squeezed her more tightly than ever.

“No, no! I am a sinner, too!”

“If you say so,” he smiled, and then he sighed.

And then it hit me......... even though it should have been obvious. There was WAY TOO MUCH idealizing and worshiping going on in that relationship at the start. Alred believed he had found a perfect angel, and Hetty believed she had found a perfectly sensitive, perfectly loving man. And then Lili's death happened, and Alred took it badly and proved that he's not perfectly sensitive to Hetty's own needs; and Hetty took that badly and proved that she's not a sinless angel since she's attracted to lecherous Leof, even knowing his past with Matilda.

So where does that leave us? That leaves me with another angle of attack. We have two people who are resentful of each other for failing to be as perfect as these unrealistic idealists themselves chose to believe. They don't simply need to forgive each other for past transgressions, they need to accept each other, flaws and all; be less demanding and more supportive of each other; and perhaps also expect less of marriage than being every day a fairy tale.

Unfortunately I don't know who (besides perhaps Dunstan) is so well attuned to what's happening in that couple that they would be able to help. I mean, I can't believe Gunnilda could come up with such an insight given that she scarcely even knows Hetty at all. So I'm back to my Dunstan+Britamund marriage-saving tag-team I guess. But it's something.

And chapters like that one (and the Gwynn becomes a woman chapter) prove to me that they really did love each other at one point. So I do think this marriage can be saved.

Gunnilda is closest to Gwynn and then Margaret, but I suppose... Gwynn could find herself stranded at Gunnilda's some snowy/rainy afternoon, and Dunstan would stop by to pick her up and drive her home, as it were... and Gunnilda would make him step inside and have a cup of cider and a piece of cake to warm him up...