This is about my new addiction with Princesse Ogive de Flandres ! I just wanted to now if the other readers loved her as I do or just didn't mind...

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She makes me smile.

I personally am of the opinion that Ogive deserves far better than Caedwulf, but since there really aren't any alternatives right now, he'll have to do at the moment.

If Connie ends up marrying Cearball, maybe Yware can fall for Ogive

I knew you'd say that, Devin.

I like the idea of Yware falling for her. They could be a great match, but I also love how she and Caedwulf complement each other so well... Oh, the dilemma of shipping. To ship or not to ship - that is the question.

Devin, you say that like you already know what Cecily's role is going to be.

François, Ogive isn't actually a princess but only a younger daughter of a count. So she is just Lady Ogive until she marries the Prince. Sigefrith's daughters and Alred's daughters outrank her until then -- and of course Yware does too.

However, Yware is only the second son of "a self-​​proclaimed Duke" and "the cousin of a lot of limp-​​pricked sons of dead or exiled princes, none of whom has more than a house or two to his name," to quote Gaethine's scathing critique of Gwynn's bloodline. So I reckon Ogive still outranks him in fact if not in title.

Assuming Ogive were actually looking for another husband, she would be better off taking some relative of Leofric's -- they're closely related to the Flemish Counts. Leof's mother was the sister of Ogive's grandfather. Ogive could marry Britmar, say. Or Baldwin or young Sigefrith if (heaven forbid) they were widowed too.

But why would Ogive be looking for anyone? It isn't as if she and Caedwulf can just say "You know what, let's marry someone else." They're officially betrothed, plus it's a diplomatic alliance, and they both seem to see the worth of diplomatic alliances. Maybe if Caedwulf were killed or lost his mind?

I can't see Ogive eloping, even out of love. That would not be very Ogive-like. And that would just be bad, in so many ways. *winces*

I didn't realise she was only a earl's daughter. But she's grand-daughter or grand-grand-daughter of the King of France. And she has a "je-ne-sais-quoi" about her that make us think she's more a Princess than Britamund and Emma. She has such a good education, and the way she is ... She's definitely princess-like even for only a lady. Maybe because she was raised in a court in which everyone was concious of their long family of nobility whereas Lothere's nobility is mostly a new and self-proclaimed one.

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Imagine that! Royal concubines in 11th century England. Er- Englandish. Englandy.

Maybe if Caedwulf and Ogive have a daughter, she could marry Haakon.

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Cad-wulf! *snicker*

I can't imagine Ogive is going to carry a flame for Caedwulf forever. One of these days she is going to figure out it just isn't going to happen. She wouldn't be Ogive if she didn't! The only question is: what will she do afterwards? Fun on the side? Or something? I don't know either.

Ogive makes me thinks about Marie-Antoinette. She was beautiful, living in a foreign country and her husband didn't pay attention to her. What if Caedwulf can't make love with her ? Then the people and the Court might hate her as Marie-Antoinette was hated...

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I heard somewhere that Marie Antoinette's husband had phimosis, but was then circumcised later in life in order to solve the problem. But that might not be true.

Yeah, that's the thing about Caedwulf and Ogive. It all hinges on Caedwulf being, like you said, reasonable, and realistically... well, the guy's inner workings are the stuff that Freud's wet dreams were made of. There's a good chance he won't be reasonable.

And I read that the circumcision story wasn't likely unless he forged his own journals and/or was man enough to go hunting immediately post-op. But regardless, wouldn't that make a fun storyline? What if that's Saeward's problem? *rolls around cringing*

In my corner of the world, nobody does it. The only circumcised guys in my story are Yusuf and the elves. (And I wonder what Flann thinks of that?)

I suppose there might be a few who had it done for medical reasons, but I'm not sure anyone wants to read about that. (I was just kidding about Saeward. Though... it WOULD be funny if his hang-up was that he didn't want anyone finding out he's circumcised. Maybe that's why he seemed to hit it off with Yusuf at that party. *rolls around some more*)

Hmm I would say "Yes" but we're so far from civilization here that it might not occur to some lesser-educated people. I wonder if the average 11th century Cumbrian milkmaid knows that Jews are circumcised?

That would certainly be an interesting explanation for Mysterious's Mystery, though, wouldn't it? Secretly a Jew? *ponders*

I haven't committed myself to much of anything regarding Saeward's past. All we know is that he isn't one of Dante's kind, since his breath is warm enough to make steam, and according to Malcolm he doesn't speak any Gaelic. Leof also revealed that he arrived from the south, since he came up to Lothere by way of the same roads Leof was to take on his way to Winchester.

However, I figure he speaks unexceptional English, since Ffraid would have noticed if he had a strong foreign accent. (Though I suppose Sigefrith himself has a "strong foreign accent" to the natives of Lothere, being from Sussex. Wynflaed doesn't even know some of the words Leof uses.)

So my guess is that Saeward is from England somewhere, perhaps from the south -- or at least he spent some time there. Sigefrith immediately appointed him to one of the highest posts in the kingdom, so he must be either someone Sigefrith knows, or someone who comes extremely highly recommended. However, he's only 29, so he would have been about 10 years old in 1066. Even if Sigefrith had known him at Hwaelnaess, he would have been too young for Sigefrith to have formed an idea of his adult character.

So I think Saeward must be a son of someone Sigefrith knew well, or a son of someone to whom he owed a great debt. Either that or it's some sort of intrigue, like he's a secret envoy of the Pope or something, and Sigefrith's providing cover in exchange for some diplomatic karma. Any other explanation would not be very Sigefrithian. The old man is far too canny to be so utterly and so immediately fooled. Whatever Saeward's secret is, you can be certain Sigefrith knows it.

I am really liking the secret Jew idea actually. I had another idea for Saeward, but I think I like this one better. It would certainly explain his apparent disinterest in individuals of either sex, for the reason you pointed out. Plus it would reduce the ook-factor of certain potential Saeward-related storylines...

TOTALLY OFF TOPIC, I know. Sorry François.

I love Ogive! I would support her with karma, if I had any. (There really should be more Ogive-chapters.)

You know, what I would really love? Caedwulf falling for her hook, line and sinker, while she is already over him. That would serve him right! Not that I hate him or anything, but he IS an idiot.
They would be SO good together, if only they fell in love! And I mean real love, not just a crush like Ogive has at the moment. I can just see the partnership....
Well, maybe, just maybe, I'll get my wish and they'll become truly happy with each other. But before that Caedwulf needs to be properly humilliated!

Mysterious as a Jew is priceless!

I'm not ready to tell that, just in case I go with that instead.

But it's pretty safe to say that if Saeward is Jewish, then he's not the other thing.

He could always be a Jewish transvestite, so no.

My head is beginning to overheat due to considering the "but by definition that's impossible" vs. "but that's the reason why it's a secret" conflict. *fans head*

OK so it's official: he's a man. I don't think anyone with a false beard would risk the scrutiny that such a flamboyantly sculpted beard invites. I bet people tug on it all the time. (Which may explain why he's quick enough with his fist to have given the Captain a black eye.)

Also there's this. It may be non-canon, but it's anatomically correct.

Poor Saeward would be AGHAST if he knew we were discussing his very gender this way. *fans Saeward*

I'm working at home today, safely snickering away.

I hope Caedwulf and Ogive will become close friends. Nothing more or nothing less.

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Lothere, I thought we had a deal!

Only half? Which?

Oh, okay...

I guess that's the most important part.