I was skimming this storyline earlier because I wasn't quite sure how I felt about this pairing, but I've figured out my current stance now, which is pretty much summed up by the third option. Anyway, I was curious about other people's opinions, and I noticed there hadn't been a new poll in a while, so I figured... why the hell not?

I picked 3 as well. I wouldn't mind them being together but I don't see it happen. Meryt dosen't Hetty have a close friend with whom she could confide in? She seems so lonely....

I think the biggest factor to me was what it might do to Matilda's kids, actually. From what I can gather, Hetty loves those kids as her own (er, insofar as any twenty-five-year-old can think of someone else's ten-seventeen-year-old kids as their own). Even if Leof actually made the next advance--which, given Alred's suicide attempt, I can't see happening any time soon--I can't see Hetty putting Matilda's kids through that. How horrible would it be to watch one's father lose one's beloved stepmother to the very same man who essentially stole away one's mother as well? I don't think the kids could ever forgive her that, regardless of whether or not their father deserves it.

I don't know why that's the factor that speaks to me. Maybe it's because it's the one that seems to transcend the times the most. Like, if this was a modern story, Hetty could just divorce Alred, and David and the new baby and maybe even Bruni wouldn't really even remember their parents being happy together anyway, but Alred's kids with Matilda would probably still feel the same way, regardless of the time or marital status or whatnot.

Still, I must admit they do have good chemistry.

I don't think Hetty loves Alred's children less than her own. She might fear that she is loved by them less than she loves them, at least now. But she has always tried to be a mother to them, and in her mind she has definitely taken on that role. And I think she has been a good one. I remember how she helped Gwynn dress her dolls for the last time when she became a woman; and how she stood up for the Old Man when he had been looking through his father's drawer, and how she promised to make a surcoat like Haakon's for him. Or remember the time when the Old Man tried to cut his curls off, and Hetty cried over it, and then helped him cut the ones he couldn't reach?

Except with Dunstan, who was quite a bit older and has spent most of his time at Dunellen, she seems to be a mother-figure to them, in spite of her young age and sheltered upbringing. I don't think you can have that day-in-day-out mothering job for several years and not develop a very strong attachment to the children.

If she had no children of her own, and if through some strange circumstances she had the choice of staying with Alred and his family or going away to be with Leofric, would she do it? I don't know how deep her loyalty to Alred's kids would go in that case. But it's such an unlikely situation that it's impossible to guess.

As for the kids' feelings for her... Well, there has to be some resentment there. The kids' are tying themselves up in knots to keep their father happy, and here's Hetty who practically kills him with her indiscretion. Nobody except Dunstan ever seems to want to blame Alred for anything, which means it's all Hetty's fault. Or rather, it's all Leof's fault -- remember how Gwynn explained to Connie that Leof has a terrible talent for seducing unhappy women. So the best they can do is blame Leof. But there has to be a little sneaking resentment or wariness in there.

Of all the kids, I think Gwynn may be the one who loves her best. For one thing, she seems to be the least obsessed with compensating for her father's ill humors. It may be because she is so self-centered, but that may be the flaw that saves her from unadulterated Alred-worship and protectiveness. Gwynn is aware enough of her own (and others') feelings that she can't see Alred as blameless, at least in terms of the suicide attempt and the effect that act of selfishness had on others.

Also, Gwynn really does have a generous heart, and truly does have a difficult time thinking ill of anyone besides Leofric and Finn. (And she was, after all, the one child we witnessed excusing Hetty by blaming Leof.)

And in "Gwynn makes a message" I wrote:

Gwynn put out her hand to within squeezing distance of Condal’s, and Condal obligingly squeezed. Gwynn had not forgotten what treasures were pressed between the folds of Condal’s linens.

Hetty discreetly turned her smiling face aside, though her cheeks were pink from mere suspicion of secret love. Gwynn found her stepmother almost perfectly attuned to matters of romance, and she considered putting out her other hand to take Hetty’s, and to see whether she would squeeze.

She was interrupted before she could do so, but to me it has always been a solid proof that Gwynn does not think ill of Hetty. How could she so blithely consider Hetty "almost perfectly attuned to matters of romance" if she believed that Hetty had any kind of romantic feelings for Leofric?

And Gwynn is the child who seems to be most lacking a confidant besides Hetty. Gwynn had a couple weeks of closeness with her new "bosom friend," but that's been strained by unacknowledged jealousies, and lately Malcolm is rationing Connie's contact with Gwynn with a very stingy hand. (Basically Gwynn only gets to see Connie when Malcolm brings Connie along for Rua's "Gaelic lessons.")

Oh, and I do think Gwynn has the makings of a little champion in her. She has Matilda's stubornness and her lioness's lack of timidity, and she has her own generous heart. If she feels someone is being ill-used, I can see her standing up to defend them. I've had this thought about her and Egelric already, and it could easily apply to her and Hetty. That doesn't mean she would stand up for Hetty's right to love Leofric, but I do think she would defend Hetty against accusations of the same.

Of the kids, I think Margaret is the one most hardened against Hetty. She has deliberately and consciously entered into a campaign of protecting and propping up her father, and no mere German stepmothers are going to stand in her way. Margaret also has a true confidant in Conrad, and she spends enough time with Emma that she can see Edris or Eadie at any time, so she doesn't need Hetty for motherly-type conversations.

Dunstan seems inclined to stand up to his father when his father is in the wrong, but that doesn't mean he's Hetty's champion. I think Dunstan just wants to do what's right and honorable, and he's capable of seeing that his father is not 100% right all the time. (Which Margaret does not seem capable of.) But Dunstan's defense of Hetty only extends as far as Hetty is in the right herself.

And Brit, I think we all know, is a huge, huge fan of Alred, and is disinclined to suffer adulterers, since her own father (whom she adores, in spite of past quarrels) had his heart thoroughly stomped on by a similar scenario. Plus, I imagine even level-headed Brit is victim to that human tendency to condemn others all the more strongly for crimes one is secretly guilty of oneself -- namely her little quasi-adulterous affair with Brinstan. And which she is now TOTALLY over, so why can't Hetty be?

As for the Old Man... he's almost too young to remember a time before Hetty. He's also too young to understand love. He's just a scared little kid, overwhelmed with fear that his father is going to commit suicide. My sense of the Old Man is that he's perfectly able to see Hetty as a mother-figure, up until something happens to "remind him" of the danger she represents to his father, and then he'll draw back a little. As he grows older and needs a Mommy less and less, he'll probably draw back from her all the more. He'll treat her more as a stepmother, with all his typical pompous good manners and affected gallantry, but less than adoring affection.

That leaves Yware, of course, and with Yware I just don't know. Yware seems to have it in for his dad, so maybe he'll go so far as to side with Hetty just to annoy Alred. Or maybe he will have a clearer insight into the relationship since he has been far away from all the drama, and he'll see right away everything that's wrong. Maybe he'll even HELP, though I find that a little hard to imagine. Anyway, Yware is still safely in Denmark right now, and I imagine the Hetty and Alred relationship will cover a lot of ground before he even gets to Lothere. This discussion may be moot by that time.

As to the actual question -- would Alred's kids ever forgive her for betraying their father for real? -- no I don't think any of them would, not even Gwynn and her taste for "romance." I don't think any of those kids are objective enough about Alred to be able to forgive adultery on Hetty's part, no matter what cruel move Alred might make against her. (Such as: if Alred has an affair of his own.) If it came down to that, Alred is still their dad, and they would be obliged to blame Hetty to preserve their love and respect for their father.

And Hetty knows she would be hurting those kids if she did anything. And lots of other people -- Leof's family, all their friends. Could Hetty -- poor, dear Hetty the Martyr -- ever be that selfish?

I guess the real question, to me, is what Leof and Hetty COULD "do" about it, without "doing" anything? The only non-tragic outcome I can imagine is a secret, unspoken, long-distance love-affair. Something like what Gunnilda and Egelric had for so many years, except scarcely even seeing each other. It would have to be enough to both of them to know that they are loved.

And not only do I, as the author, not wish to inflict massive, family-destroying tragedy on these people, I do not think either Leofric or Hetty would be willing to do that either. Leofric has done some seriously stupid, selfish things in the past, but I think he has learned from his mistakes with Matilda and now with Hetty, and I think his feelings for Hetty go beyond even his usual selfish and uncontrollable lusts.

And Hetty is just Hetty.

As much chemistry as they have -- as much poetic nectar as either of them may be able to squeeze out of this stone -- I frankly think it would be out of character for either of them to pursue this relationship on the earthly plane. Leof's very prospect of death was ennobled by the thought that "in love's kingdom, she would be his forever." And remember what he told Freya to tell Hetty:

"‘You are loved!’ That’s all that matters, Hetty. That’s what he said. If you already have all the love you need from someone else, that’s fine. And if you don’t love him, that’s fine. He simply wants you to know, if you need love, or if you need to love, you have him."

And remember what he told Cedric:

“And I’m telling you, runt, the only thing that matters is love.... And not the love you get, but the love you give in this life. It’s strange how that is, but it’s true. It doesn’t matter whether you’re loved in return – if you love, that love is yours. On earth as it is in Heaven.”

And Hetty... is just Hetty, and she tries so hard to be good!

And that is why I voted #3!

Heheh... I don't get it. That alphabetic formula sounds like the best description of KoL that I have ever heard! Even down to the author's head exploding on a regular basis.

If your question was serious, well... I don't know what to tell you. Except that I don't set out to create a love triangle. Maybe that's my secret, if secret there is. I don't create characters with love triangles aforethought, I don't go looking for characters I can throw together in an instant triangle, and I don't mistake the mere existence of a love triangle for plot. Love triangles simply happen while characters are living the substance of the plot. Sometimes a love triangle will throw the story plot off in an unexpected direction, but neither exists solely to serve the other.

For example, we have Vash and Iylaine's marriage in the context of the elven civilization coming apart at the seams, and this last-ditch attempt to save it from being crushed by mankind. And Iylaine and Malcolm's marriage is just one aspect of a complicated story of Iylaine's feelings of not belonging, of her relationship with her dad, of her dad's relationship with the elves, of Gog's relationship with Sigefrith and with his sons, and so on. And with Kraash being introduced... Kraaia is a whole ornery plot unto herself. And with Connie (potentially) being introduced, she has her own story as well. (And her own triangles.) So we're already up to the letter E right there, and without any prior calculations on my part.

Perhaps it is that these love triangles I write simply aren't triangles at all -- they are not neat geometric figures in search of a formal Euclidian proof. They're just people living their lives, falling in and out of love in the normal way; and sometimes it happens that several people fall in love with the same person at the same time. These relationships grow in an organic way, rather than being something I sketch out with my protractor and mechanical pencil. They are less like triangles than like tangling vines growing towards light. Our minds are attuned to beauty of that kind. All I have to do is keep the story watered and know what to prune.

Yep, Lothere I basically agree with everything you said, so it was number 3 for me too. I can always hope that something happens in the future to change circumstances, but right now I am just hoping for Hetty to find happiness in other ways. For example, I am a heavy Irene-Hetty bosom friendship proponent. And, I am super excited for the next chapter!

This is my first time responding to anything. I love this story and can't stay away from it. Doesn't anyone see Leofric as a preditor? That is how I see him. Any woman or child that catches his eye is fair game. I worry about Matilda's daughter Gwynn. If she looks so much like her mother then she will be on his list at some point as a conquest. I hope that Alred and Hetty can find some kind of happiness again. It seems from what I read that while he was attracted to, and desired Lilli like every other man, he had come to love Hetty. I am still not quite caught up with the the current installments, but I am almost there. I read that you need Leofric for future story lines and I am sorry to hear that. I am ready for him to come to a painful end. I just have not seen one redeeming quality in that man. Wow, I am getting too involved with this. Love the story.

Don't shoot me guys, but I don't like this pairing. They seem to be so wrong for each other, and if this is going to work out, they're both going to have to change drastically. Don't get me wrong, I want this to work for Hetty, but I don't think she's what Alred needs right now, just like how I don't think Alred is what she needs.

Alred needs a female Egelric to kick him out of this, and Hetty needs... a Leofric? I don't know what she needs, but she needs... something. Maybe a Lili, but that's too late now.

They're going to hurt each so badly if this keeps festering. It needs to change quickly or else the kids and the people associated with the family are also going to be hurt, if they aren't already.

Meryt that would be a great idea! Hetty could have Sceadwung-cliff, Lili is buried there and Ethelwynn lives close by and he could be her steward. Lady Hedwige of Sceadwung-cliff.

Oh whoops. I knew I was forgetting something in that first paragraph. I meant that I don't like Alred + Hetty, and that she could have a Leofric substitute or something. But I don't think that's possible.

I don't know, Alred has been down lately, but he's still up there with my other favorites. I just don't know how he can be happy now, since he won't try to move past... this. Whatever it is. Misunderstanding.

Edit: I'd also like to add that I also don't like Leof+Hetty. Just stay with one lady, man! And she's hot! Lady Eadgith is very pretty, in my opinion. Just stick with what you have, it's good! Don't flub it up!

I just don't know what to do with Hetty these days... Poor Hetty.

On a side, possibly related note, William IX, Duke of Aquitaine (grandfather of Eleanor of Aquitaine) while still married to his wife and having grown children "abducted" the willing Vicountess Dangereuse, the wife of one of his vassals and kept her in the tower of his castle.

He was excomminicated for it, but since he ruled over her husband nobody stopped him. His wife complained at first, but then retired to a nunnery. I believe his son led a revolt against him later, but then he married his son to Dangereuse's daughter by her husband (ew) and William and his son made up.

However, since Alred is duke and not Leofric, that really changes things. Also, not sure whether that would be in character or out of character for Leofric to do.

The latest chapter does open a lot of possibilities. I just can't wait until Leofric comes back. Maybe Hattie could let it slip?

Now that I think about it, do the children know about this? Do Dunstan and Brit know? How will Yware take it?

But the most important thing is... We can has SECKS IN A TOWER? :nanimal:

My Interpretations of What's Been Going On:
Hetty - I think Hetty is in love with Alred. When she found out about the poem sure she felt that he does not and never has loved her, but it hurt all the more because she is in love with him.
Then when Leof dragged her away at the royal castle (just before they were "caught") she protested. Yes, she was a little thrilled. But I don't think it was by a man I love kind of thrill, but damsel in distress type. Then when Leof stopped and talked to her there was something he said that made her realize that Alred really does love her. While she was still processing the information Alred bursts in. She immediately realizes that it looks as if she is willingly alone with Leof since she is no longer protesting or struggling. She feels guilty that she stuggles no longer and thinks that Alred will never forgive her...just when she had been given hope it was snatched away. Thus instead of explaining like another woman, the quiet still mourning Hetty bursts into tears and flees the room. She also blames herself for everything that happens, to the point that she doesn't explain a thing to Alred when she has a chance. She likely thinks herself to blame for his near death and deserves whatever she gets. So while she becomes more and more sad, she does not go to Alred about anything that is bothering her until she is way past being able to stand it and has that big outburst when he won't let her go downstairs.
Her feelings for Leof? I think before Alred's near death experience she did not love Leof. I think she was attracted to him, but likely didn't realize it herself. (Who would think that way about me?) She is used to Lilli getting the attention and doesn't see attention from a man meaning love for her unless it's very obvious. Which is also why when she learned that the poem was for Lilli she immediately thought that all the affections he gave her during the marriage were just to be nice, not because he loved her. (And why would I think he would? How foolish, of course he loved Lilli and not me, how could I think for a moment it could be any other way?)
Then after the injury as she comes to realize that Leof loves her (because the messanger he sent made it undeniably clear) at first she is too numb with grief for it to sink in. She just wants what was lost with Alred and thinks she can never have it. Then with the confustion of Alred saying he forgives her and loves her and acting like he doesn't, she craves his love even more and is ever more pained as he denies it...yet still feels she deserves it. Then slowly Leof loving her is a comfort. Then even something she secretly wants to return, hence the key she sent him. She may feel something there, but I don't think it's what people are interpreting. I think it's like, at least someone loves me. And as much as she feels undeserving she needs it so bad she has a hard time not feeling something for Leof. But she still loves Alred more, and likely always will. (Even if she allowed herself to fall completely for Leof.) She just doesn't think Alred truly loves her and is still faking it to be nice. His being disconected to her confirms this on a regular basis. His locking her away is bad enough that during that time if Leof had "rescued" her she might not ever want to be back with Alred no matter how much she loves him.
Then he lets her out again. She still thinks he does not love her, but now she can allow herself the possiblity that he foolishly believed it would do her and the baby good. His not moving back into their bed surely dampened the joy of this freedom.
Then Alred shows up during the labor and they have quite the moment. Surely Hetty is wondering, does he truly love me afterall? This is the point where things are so solveable.
I think it will take any very small but very definite sign that Alred loves her for her to bawl and be overjoyed, and absolutely cling to him. Even dote on him. Something real like him telling her how the reason he couldn't bare to tell her about the poem was that he fell in love with her, and so he proposed instead. Or how he loves her more than he ever loved her sister. A new poem meant just for her that says what he hasn't known how to say. Perhaps him telling her he still loves her but has withdrawn because he knows she loves Leof. Or even telling her he wasn't there for her because he was too foolish or grieved to realize how she needed him. Etc, etc.
Alred - Loves Hetty, thinks she loves Leof better than him or instead of him. He thinks she is lost to him. He is not caring out of self preservation, because deep down he cares very much. This may be a subconcious thing, but even if it isn't, it's more than he can handle so this form of self preservation is what is keeping him going instead of falling apart like a mourner with fresh raw grief.....because for Alred this is. Almost like the denial stage, but more complicated.
Alred's fear of Matilda dying during labor (which was a problem everytime and the she finally did die in labor) has carried over to fearing for Hetty. If at time he makes nutty decisions to prevent this, this is why. It is not to be evil. A secret part of him is scared to death. (But moving out of her room is still due to him thinking she doesn't love him and that she doesn't want him there...maybe even that his presence may threaten her chances of suviving the labor or having a miscarriage.
Between the tender moment with his daughter and the birth of his child he is having a breath of fresh air. A breather moment where his heart is lighter. He also fears that Hetty may die, but may think she may prefer it, Alred does have a dark side. He is extra pushy to see her before birthing to be certain that he shows her affection before hand. He likely thinks she knows he loves her but no longer returns it. He is delighted and surprised hat Hetty smiles at him, though he was seeking out her smile. Despite being in labor the moment would have grown to something more beautiful if he hadn't been rushed from the room.
Alred at this moment could be swayed into believing she does love him, and even more than or instead of Leof. He too needs something real. Such as Hetty bluntly telling him her feelings, telling him she only kept Leof's poem because she now knows he doesn't mean the ones Alred wrote for her (which of course he would protest), telling him that she didn't willingly follow Leof, telling Alred how much she needs him, that she is sad he left their bed, she misses him, etc.
Alred loves Hetty to the point that if he thinks she is happier without him, he may continue to avoid her. He might deal with this if he didn't have so much else going on.
The Aia problem could bring him to Hetty like it brought him to Margaret. But more like seeking a woman's opinion. Or if he wishes to protect her from this knowledege, than in the sense that he couldn't bare it if she were treated badly. (Especially by that Leof who is likely to not be careful with a lady's heart, mind, and body in Alred's opinion.)
Leof - He truly loves Hetty. Not like with Matilda who he called a bitch when she didn't share his affections. He loves Hetty enough to leave her be. He is likely to interfere on her behalf but is more likely to do it by trying to get Alred to man up. However if Alred gives him any indication that he won't care for Hetty even after a roughing up, this will be too much for Leof. He loves her enough that he may consult her before kidnapping her. However, if he thinks she could only be happy if she went unwillingly, than he wouldn't hesitate.
Leof also has a big heart for kids and wouldn't want her to suffer with loss of her children. This may be a big part of why he isn't pushing things.
Also if by some miracle he's alone with Hetty and pushes Hetty to the point that she bursts into tears before him and says she just want Alred to love her again, Leof may push Alred...and stay away. But more likely he'll try to comfort her get caught and make things worse.
Leof may not ever return to Lothere to avoid acting on his love for Hetty. (Running off into the sunset.) He is also watching his niece going (delightedly) through things he couldn't bare to put Hetty through. (Sleeping in whore houses for example.) However I believe Lothere has other plans for Leof.
Leof is becoming a better man for loving Hetty and will likely continue in that direction. He may even strive to be worthy of her though he may never win her.
If Alred dies, Hetty could be happy with Leof, but only if he gives her ample mourning time and loses Eadgith without doing so in a cruel way. (Like she dies.) However the moment Leof even seems to pursue another woman Hetty's heart would break so bad she may never recover. (Too much to lose Alred and Leof too.) However if Leof is truly loving her, he may quit his old ways.
I think the kids will adjust very well if Alred and Hetty patch things up, eventually if Hetty and Leof get together very much after they're done mourning, but maybe only if it's suggested by one of the kids.
If Leof causes a huge problem it will destroy Hetty and Alred both. He can't love her enough to make up for causing her to lose Alred. It could also destroy all of Alred's kids, or damage each in different ways. Hetty's kids are a bit young and may recover better...if it wasn't for their mother being destroyed over this.
What do I want? I want Hetty and Alred to mend. I want Leof to become a better man whether he gets over Hetty or not. I want Leof to see Hetty and Alred and later do something. I want him to let Hetty know that he loves her in a sister or daughter like way (though it pains him to say so) and then tell Alred "so you better love her well". I also want Hetty to be relieved instead of crushed, and for Alred to see that and feel all reassured and lovey dovey.
So by now Lothere is either going, "no, that's not how they are" or wondering how I managed to take a private look into her character's heads. Either way, like the rest, I'm at your mercy.....or rather these 3 characters are. Whether it's all happy or all tragic, I'm looking forward to reading it. (But if it's tragic my heart is going to break over this one.)

*snicker* This is the only romance novel I read. But I did read it in a year and my head is full of it. Plus Alred is one of my favorite characters. So many times I giggled over the "oh Alred" comments because I did the same thing! So maybe I remember details about him and his that others may forget?
It was all right there in the story. I guess some of it has to be reading between the lines. But some of it if you stand back and look at the characters overall it becomes more obvious.
Hetty would rather die than even think of cheating. It reminds me of the pretty blonde Githa Alred had rubbing his back way back when. She was so devasted when her husband found out he thought she had an affair with Alred. Then later she is so innocent she can't think up a real insult to call Alred when he asks her too. Hetty's last husband was rather awful. Alred is so much more than her prince charming. That can make up for a lot.
Leof knows women so well he has Hetty figured out better than Hetty does and...let's face it, he doesn't know her. He can hardly stand to be next to her at times, thinking of what he wants to do to her. At the same time he's realizing (finally!) that love counts when it's given. No wonder the guy stays away from Lothere for the sake of the woman he loves instead of returning to the woman who loves him. Kids are a big factor for him. Eventually the kid factor will drag him home.
Alred...yes he is self absorbed, but I can't help loving him through it. It isn't the I'm better than you nose in the air kind. It's life has hit him too hard in too many ways and he doesn't have Matilda to balance him out this time. He is blind to the problems he's causing since his are so big to him he can't see past them.
Remember when he took Brit under his wing because things weren't very good for her at home? His desire to not put his kids through that may help him through this. He has started to realize what they're going through and it hurts him. (Like when he realizes his girls went to Gunnilda on his behalf.)
There any number of good purposes, like the above, that can help him come out of his depression. After mourning Matilda so long he seemed permanently broken, loving Hetty took the last of the everday melancholy away. No wonder this has crushed him the way it has.

I wouldn't mind a Vashlaina analysis!

But I'm sure I won't like the outcome.