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What should happen with Alred and Hetty?
Submitted by Devin on Fri, 07/29/2011 - 06:40.
Should they separate and Hetty move to Sceadwung-clif with her kids and niece and nephew? Or is their marriage salvageable?
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Hey Devin, head to the chat
Submitted by Tiffany on Fri, 07/29/2011 - 06:57.Hey Devin, head to the chat real quick.
I don't want to bother, but
Submitted by Dominiquex on Wed, 08/03/2011 - 10:09.I don't want to bother, but I'm curious what the general consensus in the chat was, if anyone was still interested in the topic.
Should they separate I could
Submitted by Bastet on Wed, 08/03/2011 - 13:26.I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure that divorce wasn't an option back in those days. Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that Lasrua could divorce Magog if she wanted to, but only because they hadn't had sex yet? And aren't they Catholic (assuming my limited knowledge of religion is correct and that everyone was Catholic until Henry VIII came along), so divorce is a big no-no?
edit: Oh, wait, I forgot Leila/Leofric. But then there was that thing with the two wives...
Alred needs to just realize how much Hetty is hurting because of him. But that doesn't seem likely considering how he's being all self-centered and depressed, which is not a good combination when it comes to noticing anybody else's feelings. Maybe if she told him (unlikely, considering her nature)? Or would he not even care?
I think Gwynn could play a role in saving Hetty.
From "Gwynn practices the matchmaking business". *cue blamage*
One thing's for sure: If you manage to fix their marriage, Lothere, you'll deserve an award. Maybe it could be a storyline! It kind of reminds me of Orlaith's past a little bit, considering how she married into Aed's family as a second (and less beloved) wife.
__________________________
Here may we sit and view their toil
That travail in the deep,
And joy the day in mirth the while,
And spend the night in sleep.
Divorce was an option, but
Submitted by Lothere on Wed, 08/03/2011 - 16:02.Divorce was an option, but as far as I know, the only documented cases in Anglo-Saxon England were for adultery. Maybe things looked bad enough when Alred found them together, but in any case, he has taken her back as his wife, so it's too late for him to change his mind now.
Elsewhere in Europe I believe there was the possibility of a divorce due to barrenness. Ogive's brother-in-law King Philipe of France is going to try this tactic soon -- even though his wife already gave him a son -- so he can marry his mistress. He's claiming Bertha is too fat to bear him any more children. He is going to end up excommunicated for that, though. The Pope isn't going to fall for it.
Normally if a couple couldn't get along they could live separately. Alred could give her a separate household or even pressure her into returning to a convent.
As for Rua, she's not going to divorce Magog, she's going to get her marriage annulled. That was a much more appealing choice for noblemen looking to upgrade their wives, because it was equivalent to saying the marriage never happened. Both people were free to remarry. You had to find an excuse why you should never have been allowed to marry in the first place (for example, you realize too late that you're close cousins or your wife was already married to someone else), or else why the marriage wasn't valid (because Rua was dying and in no condition to consent, and furthermore the marriage was never consummated).
In Anglo-Saxon England (and in Norse/Danish lands) there were common-law wives, which were like mistresses with something of a legal standing, even though the Church certainly didn't recognize them. A man quite commonly recognized his common-law wife's children as being among his legal heirs. If he had children from a common-law wife and a Church-approved wife, however, and he had any kind of earthly power to pass down, it was safer to give the title and the lands to the son of the Church-wife. Otherwise your Church-wife's children might decide to fight back, and they would have more of a civil and religious leg to stand on.
King Harold II married his legal wife -- a noblewoman with powerful connections -- only a year or so before he died, as a way of increasing his influence. But all his life he loved his common-law wife Eadith and had many children with her, including the Godwine and the Ratty-Mustache Magnus that Matilda was always talking about.
Leila's status while she was with Leof was precisely that: common-law wife. He could repudiate her at any time, and acknowledge her children or not, as he chose.
Sigefrith, on the other hand, is very uncomfortable with the idea. His monogamy is part of his propaganda about himself.
As for Hetty and Alred, we certainly didn't decide anything in the chat.
We've batted a few ideas around before. But the only thing I know for sure is that I will have to do something serious to fix this relationship. (Or just not fix it.)
Because if it's as simple as "But I thought you didn't love me!" -- "But I thought you didn't love me!" then it would be pretty hard to convince you all that it took them four or five months to get to that point. Their relationship is going to require actual work. (By them and by me.)
Ok, that's what I thought.
Submitted by Dominiquex on Wed, 08/03/2011 - 16:31.Ok, that's what I thought. Short of some high dose SSRI therapy for Alred and some serious marriage counseling for them both, I can't see a straightforward way around it either. Or one that keeps them together and happy, anyway. The "I thought you didn't love me" thing was true at first, but it's gotten far worse since then. Alred was essentially jailing Hetty and accusing her of/leading her to hysteria. He has ED of an emotional etiology. Not to mention what was essentially a successful suicide (only averted by elf healing magic).
I'm trying to think if any of our modern antidepressants could possibly have herbal roots (pun not intended), like so many of our other drugs have... I mean, there's St. John's Wort but that's really only been proven to work in mild-moderate depression at best. Ooh! One of our last line anti-depressant remedies even today is electro-convulsive therapy - it's only for cases that are not responsive to multiple medications and leads to some mild short term memory loss, but it can work when nothing else does. Quite well actually. It's just not something people really want to pursue, and works best when done repeatedly. So, yeah, other than having Alred get struck by lightening to re-boot his neurological system, I don't really have any good fixes either.
Well, regardless, I have faith in you Lothere!
I'm beginning to think there
Submitted by Lothere on Wed, 08/03/2011 - 16:35.I'm beginning to think there simply won't be a resolution. In Real Life marriages don't always work out.
And you're right: it's no longer just "I thought you didn't love me." There has been actual damage done to the relationship. Serious violations of trust on both sides. Even if they have the "I thought you didn't love me" conversation, there is still a lot of healing that has to be done.
But then again I brought Eadgith and Leof back together. And they're still together. If I can do that I can do this. If I decide that's in-character for these characters.
One thing I've been
Submitted by PorkWithBones on Wed, 08/03/2011 - 18:36.One thing I've been wondering is how well Alred's inability to "be intimate" with his wife parallels Matilda's miscarriage. That is, Matilda let it upset her beyond what it normally would have because she didn't know how regularly it happens, and that it happens to most women. And I'm wondering whether Alred realizes that ED can happen anytime to any man, and does happen to most men sometimes. Is some degree of his feeling of failure as a man because he thinks this is something he took away from himself, as well? (Meanwhile, whatever the initial emotional + physical cause, exactly this kind of dwelling on the subject would make sure it persists.)
Also, this whole line of thought amuses me in another way, because of the old phallic association with swords. I can easily see Alred pondering the idea that he has taken away his ability to wield a metaphorical sword along with a literal one, and possibly concluding that there is a poetic rightness to that.
All told, I agree that leaving them unsettled for a longer while may be the best option. It's gutwrenching to watch, but realistically so. And it allows the possibility of things changing later, as memories soften with the passage of time. (Plus, if you can sit on Finn's story for 14 Lothere-years, and the Egelric-Gunnilda romance for longer than that -- and that one's still not exactly resolved -- you can let Nothelm carry on with the general sense of unease that has become the new normal for a while longer.)
His inability to perform in
Submitted by Lothere on Thu, 08/04/2011 - 04:31.His inability to perform in bed must be devastating to a man who was once famous among his friends for his sexual appetite. In addition to his physical weakness and advancing age, his anger and mistrust of Hetty, he has the morbid idea that Hetty is closing his eyes and imagining he's Leof, which as he told Gunnilda is a "surpassing mortification to his soul".
And his vanity is such, I can't see Alred talking about this with anyone. We know Sigefrith has this problem occasionally but I just can't see that conversation happening. Alred needs a male equivalent of a Gunnilda or a Lady Eadgith to talk to. (Ferrrrrgus?
Not that asking a strapping, 20-something, sometimes monk is going to occur to Alred.)
Fergus might be the type to
Submitted by PorkWithBones on Thu, 08/04/2011 - 18:11.Fergus might be the type to intuit the need and instigate the conversation himself, though -- or at least steer the conversation of a group of males in that direction, though.
Overall, though, I doubt it was a problem any man would talk much about in those times. (Not that they do today, for that matter, though the international purveyors of spam would have us believe otherwise.)
Maybe it's something a
Submitted by Lothere on Fri, 08/05/2011 - 03:50.Maybe it's something a priest could help with? In their role as therapist for the people. When he mentions how this makes him feel, the priest (probably not Matthew
) could tell him, "It's not that uncommon, you know. A lot of men tell me the same thing."
But of course this is only the iceberg-tip of Alred's problems.
Has Alred ever thought of
Submitted by Devin on Fri, 08/05/2011 - 12:23.Has Alred ever thought of taking a mistress since the ordeal with Hetty?
That doesn't seem like
Submitted by Lothere on Fri, 08/05/2011 - 15:21.That doesn't seem like Alred's style. Especially not if he's depressed and also insecure about his ability to perform.