Sex vs. intimacy

Hmmm... yeah, I don't think this point in the story is quite right for the intimacy. A loving sex scene might be a chance for readers to take a breather and digest all the politics, but overall, I think it would just interrupt the plot.

By the time Magog gets back, things will probably have eased up a bit with all that, so maybe then the intimacy will fit the story better. But yeah, I'm with you on the conflict thing--really, the intimacy thing is nice, but good stories are not necessarily made of "nice".

But yeah, if you can somehow add conflict to the intimacy, go ahead. Like... I don't know, one-sided intimacy? One party's head-over-heels in love, while the other party is just being indulgent or has some ulterior motive or something? Although then I guess that's not truly intimacy. Hmmm...

I wasn't thinking about the next few days... I doubt we'll get a chance for that sort of chapter till about Christmas, at earliest. (I've been promising a Dunstan+Brit chapter for around that time, though, so there's that.)

I really do think that Magog is sort of tailor-made for this problem. He's really good at the sex part, but maybe it's just been a way for him to stave off the intimacy? Getting him to really open up and be intimate with someone might be just what he and the author need.

I have long thought of the difference between these two seemingly similar things. I have never felt deprived of good ol' fashioned loving while reading, but now that I think of it, it is a missing element. But you are what I'd like to call a developing author and I'm sure when you're (and the plot!) ready, you'll put it in at the right time.

There was Shus and Dara... I find that to be intimate, though it didn't get very far before the fade to black. Of course intimacy doesn't have to equal sex, in this context or any other, so I think it could count.

Otherwise... the only intimacy I can think of recently is Osh and Flann. Osh is actually not too shabby at that. They've just had lots of Other Issues getting in their way all the time...

I'm not really sure whether those were "good writing" or not either. I feel kinda new at this, like I'm not even a good judge...

I think you're a great judge. So far you've managed to balance tons of storylines while keeping the readers captivated. And you've taken any criticism graciously, much better than I would have. *shakes fists at naysayers* Yes, there have been some moments of profound intimacy between couples, and even friends. It's your call.

Yeahhhh... I'm pretty good at intimacy so long as it's all guy friends.

In fact I was just asking myself whether this question is not the cause of -- or the result of -- my difficulties with creating engaging, popular female characters. (And not killing them when I do create them.) Intimacy does require multiple people...

Not always...

I mean, at least not according to Emma...

What did she say about Blocky that night...?

I think you're confusing sex with intimacy...

Aw, just like Malcolm.

I think there have been some great moments of intimacy between friends and family members (see the recent chapter with Gwynn and Meggie that was such a tearjerker for some of us.) And I agree that the Shus + Dara one was really good...it was just so utterly refreshing to see a couple so obviously deeply in love.

I think we've gotten some good intimate moments with couples too...Alred and Matilda have had some sweet cozy moments, and Egelric and Lili being adorable, especially in "Lili has a few thoughts" and their various other bedroom scenes.

But sex and intimacy together? It's true that we haven't gotten a whole lot of that.

I CANNOT WAIT for the CLIFF SECKS and the intimacy difficulties that follow...or precede, as the case may be.

It's true Alred and Matilda had a lot of intimate little naked-in-bed scenes back in the day. Even if they bickered through a lot of them, they were always so affectionate before, after, and sometimes during.

I guess I don't really have a problem with intimacy in friendships. (Though it's been tough at times doing the sister thing, because I never had a sister, and just female friendships in general because I've always been surrounded by males. That would be worthy of a whole 'nother post...) I've done a lot of that, especially between the guys. I don't think I have a hard time convincing readers that characters in these sort of friendships care deeply about each other. In fact I'm just about to go there yet again in the upcoming chapter.

The thing I don't seem to do often or well is sexual intimacy between loving couples. At least not lately. Or at least it doesn't feel that way. We've had so much yuckiness lately with Egelric + Maire and Llen + Aia (and Alred + Hetty so excruciatingly NOT DOING IT) that it gets a little depressing.

*cough* In Magog's defense, (never thought I would start a sentence that way) he did attempt sexual intimacy once that we know about (or at least I've gleaned that much from the description of the event since we never actually SAW it)- During his wedding night. And if he didn't have intimacy issues then, he sure as heck does now.

And just wait till he finds out what Maire's been up to since.

(And when he finds out IT WAS EGELRIC...)

Would he seriously be angry with Egelric? It was all Maire's fault the woman's missing a screw.

Oh I think Magog will not take at all kindly to Egelric sleeping with Maire, even if it had been consensual. Men don't like the idea of other men with their past flames in general, but for Magog it's more than just general. He's still wearing her ring for heaven's sake. After all these years.

(That *could* be just another intimacy avoiding tactic of his... but I think it's more than that.)

Yeah Egelric did Malcolm wrong. One doesen't sleep with his or her friend's ex.

This is an interesting idea. I have to say thought that there have been many times in the past of Lothere where I thought the sex was completely linked with intimacy (although I guess you are right about the fade to black... but I am a big fan of the fade to black at least in my own writing since it is difficult to write these things without making them all porno. You seem to have mastered the art as of late though Lothere of writing actual entire sex scenes that weren't bodice-rippy or off-putting). In regards to intimacy Cenwulf and Edris in particular come to mind. Perhaps it was because they were dealing with such huge intimacy issues but in writing them I really think you captured the juxtaposition between the two. And I want to mention Leofric and Lady Eadgith in particular and this chapter http://www.lothere.com/chapter/762 . Despite the fact that the conversation keeps jokingly turning back to sex eventually it doggedly returns to the real issue at the heart of it... intimacy. As of late though I guess the sex scenes have been less... snuggly. At least the ones that haven't faded to black. But in some ways Lothere has been turning into a darker place over the years as the characters grow (and lets face it... the ones that grow in a good direction are less interesting so we don't see them as much) and the times turn ever towards... well whatever dark times we are approaching.

I hope I am not spouting a lot of rubbish and haven't totally missed the point of this discussion. Sorry if that is the case

I am going to have to think about this in my own writing (though I have definitely not even begun to master the art of writing sex scenes without them ending up completely toe-curlingly embarrassing on the first draft... and not much better on the final issue). Intimacy vs sex. There can be intimacy without sex but can there really be sex without intimacy?

I think the fade to black is fine, as long as you're consistent with that. What troubles me is that lately I seem to only do the fade to black when it's nice and loving. If it's violent or twisted or just AWKWARD (like Estrid + K), then you get the whole show. I am pleased that I am getting comfortable with writing about sex "all the way", but it would be better if I could keep a balance. Because otherwise it does seem like something I'm avoiding.

Then again, if it's a chapter like Estrid + K (for the first time) a fade to black would not have worked AT ALL. Like if I stopped when he kissed her -- how would you even know whether they did it or not? How would you know how awkward and misunderstood it was?

Or even Llen + Aia... of course Aia didn't herself catch all the subtleties of that episode, but we learned quite a bit there about the both of them, and how better to express that than to just show it? I could do in a few paragraphs and a few poignant pictures what it would have taken pages of after-the-fact exposition and ponderous internal dialog to explain. And who wants to read that?

I guess this gets us back to the topic of conflict. If Brit and Dunstan fall giggling into bed together, we don't need to hang out with them to understand more or less what's going to happen. Whereas if Lar and Imin fell giggling into bed together... inquiring minds want to know!

It is kind of sad that Lothere is turning into such a dark place recently, but I guess it's normal. The giddy frontier days are over. The relationships with the elves can no longer be solved by the elves just hiding from the men all the time. The world is aware of Lothere and Lothere is getting implicated in world affairs.

But life goes on, as Sigefrith so recently said, and there are surely still places where love and intimacy bloom. I think it's something worth working on.

Hehe... Imin and Lar. That is a rather disturbing image. And afterwards Lar can plait Imin's hair nicely as is the elven way . Oh dear... going to have nightmares tonight.

I think you are totally right. I think if things are all happy and nice then there really isn't the need to continue on, we know what is going to happen. If you had faded to black with Estrid and K it would have been no fun at all. And everything that happened next would have made no sense whatsoever. Can I just say that I am totally glad you faded to black on that last Maire and Egelric chapter

At least you had giddy frontier day! I think my poor Mhalwae people have been doomed and morbid since the word go. I am a mean taskmaster. But to be honest I don't think the giddy days of Lothere are over altoghether... think of the youth. They are the new giddymeisters. All the oldies have had to grow up, get serious and deal with multiple tragedies. But there is still so much fun to be had in the ridiculous conversations of the boys and the sighing romance of the girls. And Yware is coming back soon so let the giddyness begin I for one am feeling giddy already just thinking about it.

You know, I think I would feel totally awkward about writing a happy sex scene all the way. The only sex scene I have written all the way was not exactly a happy walk in the park scene by any means. And apart from the closest I ever got to actually writing a happy one faded to black at the first thrust . I think I need to practice a bit more. I have something planned soon but it will also be fading to black. *sigh* I don't know how to not fade to black.

Ugh still btw... Lar and Imin. That is going to stick. Although the funny thing is I think it is the thought of Lar giggling that is the most jarring part of that image.

I second that last. If Lar is giggling then he's finally snapped. Like psychotic mass murderer, wearing your face as a mask snapped.

I was thinking the same thing about the giggling. Lar / Imin is conceivable, but God no, not the giggling... that would be the most twisted sex yet.

*has been thinking some more* There still HAS to be something worthwhile to hang around FOR, I think. If it's just an opportunity to read about steamy sex, then it's porn. (Which is OK if you like that sort of thing, but dangit I have a story to tell.)

But if it's people discovering each other, or coming to some realization about themselves or each other, or something wonderfully or dreadfully unexpected happens... then OK. (Can you tell I have Malcolm+Rua on the brain?)

"First times" are ripe for that -- whether it's the first time overall or first together. Or the example Verity gave where the sex was supposedly the point of the conversation, but actually the whole thing was about something else. (In that case the holy grail of intimacy itself.)

I am probably wasting a lot of words here figuring out stuff that is self-evident to anyone who has ever studied creative writing. Bear with me, I'm just figuring this out as I go.

Ah but that is the thing about any creative pursuit- There are never any hard and fast rules to guide you so it never stops being a learning experience. If you ever reach a point where you are no longer asking questions and attempting to fiddle with the mechanics then you're not writing. Unless of course you're writing, "Caution: Contents may be hot." or "Fold tab A into tab C."

Creative writing isn't like math where 2 + 2 always equals 4. Sometimes it may equal 8 or 12 or Abraham Lincoln. Often, you necessarily find yourself re-evaluating what twoness is.

Hey, what works is what works, isn't it? And really, what better way is there to learn than figuring out as you go? That way, you get to see firsthand what works and what doesn't, and you get used to the idea of having to discern between the two on your own.

Plus it helps to voice what you're thinking sometimes. A lot of times, people don't even realize they have ideas until they actually muse about them out loud, or write or type their thoughts somewhere.

And it gives other people a fresh perspective! Like, I have this sex scene coming up on the outline for one of my stories, and I've been stressing over it for a loooooong time, even though it probably won't even be posted for quite a while. I keep worrying about word choice, point of view, what needs to be described, what shouldn't be described, how to make it interesting, how to make it non-cheesy, etc. Now, this discussion is up, I've read what everyone has to say on the subject, and I'm finding it's a big help.

I'm beginning to learn (yes, only just now) that being isolated in one's own mind-frame can only stifle creativity, and more often than not, someone else's opinions on certain things can be absolutely invaluable.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand I'm going off on like a million different tangents, and I don't even remember what I actually wanted to say, so I'll shut up now.

I definitely believe in the process of continually trying to improve. It's the same thing with programming... if you look back on code you wrote 3 years ago and don't ask yourself "What rabid schizophrenic macaque wrote this crap?" then you've not been working hard enough at getting better. (My early, now 3-year-old chapters have much the same effect on me.)

I just feel sort of... lacking in formal training, and it's intimidating to think that some of you have it, and so... I can't fool you people.

I don't even know what's really involved in that sort of thing. Would having a creative writing education made me a better writer? I guess that probably yes, but more because it would have obliged me to critically study my own writing and (especially!) other writers' writing. I've taken up novel-reading again in my few minutes of spare time, after practically stopping reading for years, and it's amazing to me how much more attuned to writerly things I am now. "Oh, so that's how she did that..." I expect that with an education I would have been much farther ahead in that game.

But I don't really think there are any "rules" out there to break or follow. (If only it were that easy.) OK, I still need to reduce the number of adverbs... but I've begun toning down all the roaring and growling and other menagerie-like sounds coming out of Lothere. And no more talking-heads chapters.

But once you get past that kind of stuff (which is like 1/2 of a short chapter in On Writing) you're left with the vast wilderness of "How do I tell a compelling story?" And I imagine that terrain is different for every writer.

A lot of these blog posts start out as a way for me to write stuff down, which itself helps me hash it out in my head a little. But it gets better because I know some of you will respond -- some from the perspective of readers, and some from that of fellow writers. And in both cases it can be quite illuminating for me. Especially the criticism.

It's also incredibly useful to get feedback on my writing almost as soon as I finish a chapter. In spite of the disadvantages of writing and publishing a story in this format (and these disadvantages are becoming ever more apparent to me) that alone makes this all worthwhile. It's not college, but I've learned so very much these past few years. Even though I am sure that a few years from now I will look back on this entry and the contemporary chapters and go "What rabid schizophrenic macaque wrote this crap?" *flings poo*

I like the menagerie sounds

Particularly since a lot of the roaring and growling are coming from Magog and Leofric

I think I should be taking some notes on this. It could make my English assignments and essays at school easier.

Verity, the growls and roars will be all the phwoarier when they are reserved for Important Moments with Important Men.

*still can't get over Magog growling when he's kissing*

HOT.

The menagerie sounds never bothered me. The way I see it, beats constant use of the word "said". I mean, a "said" every once in a while is fine, but sooo many people have absolutely no qualms about having four "said"s in a row and it breaks me inside

Now, on the contrary, I find that too many "squeaked" and "grunted" and "roared" and "howled" just gets silly after a while. I think it's better to save words like "thundered" for the times when it really matters... like this one, when I was making use of storm metaphors anyway:

He paused to sweep plates and knives and cups aside as if he feared they would become dangerous projectiles in the blast he was about to make.

Eochaid began, "But you see..."

"Who ordered my ships onto the open sea in the winter?" Aed thundered.  "Who ordered Brass Dog to be allowed to strip them of their sails?  Who ordered them dressed up like painted harlots and adorned with rags?  And who—who ordered my men to bathe in the blood of Norsemen while surrounded by a sea of water?  Who ordered this in my name?"

It is a problem similar to that of overuse of adverbs... I have so many ways to tell you that "Egelric roared" without resorting to the the word... through the dialog itself (I am down with exclamation marks though) as well as things like his stance, his expression, the book he just threw across the room, the way Ethelwyn cringed when he said it, etc. I also get the advantage of pictures, which novelists don't have. A picture of Angry Egelric does effectively get the point across.

A lot of times on first drafts I will have lot more "roareds" and "said softlies" in there, and when I'm cleaning it up I will look at each of those and ask myself whether the tone can be inferred from the words themselves or from the context, and quite often it can. While I'm writing it down, I tend to want to say HELLO READER! IT'S VERY IMPORTANT YOU UNDERSTAND HE'S SHOUTING RIGHT NOW!! But afterwards I chill. You'll get it.

But I find that "said" is one of those words that doesn't really register in the brain while reading... I agree that something like this is monotonous:

"I told you how faster I rode," he said.

"I concede that you are a better rider than I shall ever be a sailor," Baldwin said.

"So, here is how we did," Njal said.

But an occasional "Baldwin said" after a few lines of unattributed dialog helps you keep track of who's saying what without distracting from what's being said. It scarcely makes a blip.

But what is TREMENDOUSLY distracting is when you start reading down a few lines of back-and-forth dialog and you lose your place and have to go back up and count down to figure out who is saying what. That is utterly unforgivable. It's obivously unavoidable sometimes, insofar as nobody's perfect -- I've had that happen to me when reading books written by the best authors who ever lived -- but it's a deadly sin in my book. You just yanked someone out of immersion in the story and reminded him of the mechanics of reading. Plus you annoyed him, and now he thinks you're stupid. It's lose-lose.

So I would much rather have a few unnecessary, almost invisible "he saids" in there than have a reader stumble right in the middle of a conversation. If I'm ever reading over my own draft (or even finished chapter) and find myself wondering who said that, I drop everything and put a "____ said" in there. If *I* can't keep my own characters straight, I certainly can't expect you guys to do it.

But as Pen said, if you're doing the job with distinguishable voices and clues of context, then that shouldn't happen too often. Otherwise you may have a case of talking heads, and that's a problem in its own right.

I am in this phase where I actually vet every "said", every "roared", every "asked" that I write now. If it doesn't seem necessary, it goes. Conversely if I find a spot where I get confused, I add a quiet little "said". I try to save the big words like "roared" and "bellowed" and "hissed" for the times when I really really need you to see someone roaring, bellowing, or hissing. Like when Sigefrith bellowed in the last chapter, Eadred was supposed to be this close to peeing his pants. Sigefrith has quite a pair of lungs.

I don't think I've quite settled on how much is too much / how much is enough yet, but it's high on the list of things I'm working on in my writing at the present moment. That and everything that ends in -ly. Incredibly hard to kill that one.

Oh, and "he said" is an iamb... I will admit to having used it on occasions for reasons of pentameter.

Aaaaand sometimes I add a "he said" to introduce a pause where there would be one in real life. A lot of my middle-of-the sentence "he said"s serve double-purpose that way, in fact.

How do you feel about hissing? I've read a lot of people who refuse to allow "she hissed" if there are not several sibilant sounds in the phrase she is supposedly hissing. As in eye-rolling, fake-gagging refusing to allow. But how else would you describe that wonderful back-of-the-throat fricative sound that people make when they're talking through fury? I'm torn. As you say, I should probably just leave it out.

That book sounds remarkable. Also sounds like the sort of thing novices should not attempt to emulate.

Oh gosh, I'd be terrified to attempt something like that. But I think that it has solidly reached my list of favorite books.

I don't mind hissing so long as it's used properly. It's hard to think of an example. It depends on who is speaking- For instance, I would never believe Githa Selle hissing but I would readily believe Eadgith (the elder) hissing. It also depends on what's being said. If it's not the sort of thing that would be hissed... Heh, this isn't the sort of weirdness that I can ever remember popping up in KoL .

Hissing is a perfectly valid way of describing how someone is speaking. A lot of people actually do seem to hiss when they're angry, but trying not to yell, sibilance or not. I don't see why that would bother some people, so long as it fit the character and the situation, but hey, probably a lot of people don't understand my issues with "said", so I guess it's a matter of opinion.

A survey of recent Lotherian hissing activity indicts Njal (BABIES!), Ffraid (lots), Cearball (LYING BITCH!), creepy pedophile Scottish groom (WHAT DID YOU SAY?), Cian (I THOUGHT I TOLD YOU NEVER TO LEAVE THIS PLACE!), Qatal (WHAT IS THAT STINK?) and Eithne hissing in imitation of him, and Lar (NICE TRY! through a smile).

Oh, and Sweetdew. Sweetdew gets a free pass.

Oh wow... I think that's it actually. Those naysayers are imagining a snake's hiss. (At least a cartoon sssssnake'ssss version.) But Van and I are thinking of a cat's hiss... exactly that back-of-the-throat scratchy sound you make when you (or your cat) are angry but trying not to yell.

I hereby reclaim the word "hissed" for S-less use! (In moderation of course.)

Also, I love how we have taken a perfectly good conversation about SEX!!!! and turned it into one about word choice when writing dialog. Lo, we are nerds.

Heh. I thought about that too.

Maybe if I say the word penis, we can get this conversation back on track!

*says louder* Penis!

Of course this could easily devolve into a discussion of word choice when describing the male organ.

Funny you mention that because I just heard the best euphemism for testicles ever-

Wedding vegetables.

*bwahahahahaha!*

Well, that sure gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "Eat your vegetables".

hehe Wedding vegetables.